It Has Begun…
January 22nd, 2008 | Michael Q. Pink
We are beginning a new year, one that I predict will be the most tumultuous, exciting and challenging year to date for most of us. The stock market will make roller coaster rides at Disney seem tame and nations will rise up and be more threatening than ever. And God saw to it that you and I were born in this time. Do you think that was so we could find a cave and hide? Or is it possible that in the midst of the tumult, the trials and the tests, the Desire of the Nations (a term for the Messiah found in Haggai 2:7) who resides in us, may actually want to be found in us as one who brings hope and help in time of need?
But that conflicts with the theology most of us hold. We believe Christ’s return is imminent and it may well be, but that doesn’t mean we should rejoice as we see the darkness approaching, watching from the supposed safety of our fallout shelters as God brings judgment on the systems of this world. Believe me, there are few who abhor the evil systems we are all swimming in more than I. We use phony currency backed up by impossible promises made by unscrupulous men who profit from our collective misery.
But we were born for such a time as this! Let us arise and like the sons of Issachar discern not only the times in which we live, but apprehend the wisdom to know what to do! And you wonder if it’s God’s will to prosper and have tangible answers for a world that is beginning to be gripped by panic??? Now more than ever, the world needs to see the Desire of the Nations rise up in us and demonstrate wisdom in a time of collective ignorance and outright stupidity. The world is looking for answers and even more so as their pension funds disappear and stock portfolios diminish.
You don’t know what to do yet? Me neither. Not fully. But what I do know, I do. And so should you. Let us step out in what we do know. Let us launch out in the direction of our dream, the one we got when we spent time in His presence and not the one we got from “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.” I have much more to say on this topic but that will have to wait till next time. Until then, seek Him like your life depended on finding Him. It just might!
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January 22nd, 2008 at 10:06 am
Amen!
Thank you!
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 am
Born in such a time as this! Glory! (to quote my other friend Homer) As I have been reading “Rich Church, Poor Church” and thinking like a Joseph, trying to stand still and see HIS deliverance, not by my might, and looking FULL into HIS wonderful face, I think I’ll add the Esther prayer. I am seeking to be all HE has called me to be and yet not “doing” it all, but “being” HIS all. Thank you for the great words. I have to say though, “it’s about time!” I have been waiting for a nugget from Wolves now, and this is it. I have just finished sharing with my sister in the LORD about waiting on HIM in a desparate situation she is in, so this is timely! Blessings to you Michael Pink. I am glad GOD put you (prophetically) in my “pink world,” that has a different focus than that of the typical world!
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:29 am
I believe that we need to change our mindsets.
We need to live in the Word, yes, the Word is Life and Life abundantly, no matter what we see, feel or hear, we are children of the Most High God.
No matter recession, or what have the earth, we have the right to live, prosper and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven today and now!
We speak the word over our situation, not just once but it needs to be
continual and let it rise your Faith up!
Our God has the cattle of a thousand hills, we are not to struggle, if we look to the word to fill our situation, it will and must change, by His Spirit this is!
Let It Be On Earth as It is in Heaven, today and now!
We need to do this, or we will not be able to fulfill what God must
do thru us to allow Kingdom Building and Salvation…
To Reach Many, to Lend and Not Borrow, to be the Head and not the Tail!
Walk in His Word today!
Love ya all!
Kristy
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 am
In the Bible Joseph went through many testings and trials… only to end up positioned with the key to the provision for his family and the nation of Israel in their dark time of need. Today God is positioning Joseph’s who have been through the refiner’s fire to arise… for such a time as this. Light shines brighter in the darkness. Many will run to it.
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:53 am
In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, volume I of The Chronicles of Narnia, one of the children asks Mr. and Mrs. Beaver about Aslan the Lion, who is a figure of Christ:
“Is Aslan quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion.”
“That you will dearie, and no mistake,” said Mrs. Beaver. “If there’s anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they’re either braver than most or just plain silly.”
“Then he isn’t safe?” said Lucy.
“Safe?” said Mr. Beaver; “don’t you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? Of course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.”
God is good. But until we understand the truth that He is not safe, that He is not under our control, until we come to grips with the truth of His uncompromising holiness, we will never begin to grasp His amazing grace.
God is not a genie, under our control. He is the master. When we fancy ourselves masters, it can be intimidating to agree to being a servant. Christ is in charge of the universe whether or not we recognize Him—but when we do, we honor Him by submitting to His lordship.
In many passages of Scripture, God calls upon us to fear Him. But once our sins are confessed He says we can warmly embrace Him, come to Him as “Abba, Father” (meaning Papa or Daddy). We can come boldly before His throne with the access only permitted to the King’s children. We still fear Him, but in a way that does not diminish our love for Him, or His for us.
Whatever God had in store for us, it will be good. Maybe not easy, maybe devastating, but He loves us and will always do what is best for us. Our goal should be trust and obey.
In HIm,
Kern
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:11 am
Well said!
He (the Desire of the Nations) always leads us into victory. Our challenge will be one that includes battling the temptation to act like a victim of circumstance. The Desire of the Nations is calling the Body to follow Him into victory despite what we see with our eyes and feel in our heart. Will we believe in the promise of being led into victory or will we take offense and turn away?
There is a reason that judgment begins with the House of God! The word “judgment” means to put into order. Do you wonder why so many christians are going through tough times? God is putting His Body into order according to His will in order to position us to establish His government (a broad form of order) in the earth.
Once the Desire of the Nations has His Body in order then watch out for greater judgment to move through the earth and the established order. His Kingdom will come to the nations of the earth and His government will be fully established. He really will be the Desire of the Nations.
I love it!!!
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
This is exactly the prayer my husband and I have been praying for months. For God to show us the wisdom and knowledge of what to do in the coming days of distruction.
PLEASE right more and give direction!!!
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
AMEN, HALLELUJAH!!! WHEN YOU HAVE DONE ALL YOU CAN DO, STAND!!! THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE NOW BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, REVELATION11. I’M HUNGRY FOR PART 2. TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY!!!
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“We use phony currency backed up by impossible promises made by unscrupulous men who profit from our collective misery.”
The only other person that I have heard say this is Presidential Candidate Ron Paul. www.ronpaul2008.com
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Kern,
Excellant post. You are right. Everything from God is good. Which means the opposite is true as well. Everything not from God is bad.
I’m in the mortgage industry and this is a challenging year. But it will be a good year as God refines me. This will be a season of growing up for many in my industry (loans and real estate).
But the refiner’s fire always burns off the dross and leaves something purer.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Yes indeed like He said in His word when we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him , thanks for that . Even like those children of Isacchar they were just as human as us so no excuse for us whatsoever. Thanks for this I am eager to hear the next revelation!
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
a friend of mine sent this to me today, and it is the confirmation of my vision and direction. I am on a 21 day fast and today is the 14th day. This is the final week of seeking the Lord as to whether I stay where I work or launch out into the dream God has for me. two days ago at my home church, my pastor asked to come to the altar and make a committment, I went there telling my wife that I will stop working at my place of work. I will move forward with working to build the dream of helping every believer witness more effectively for christ using our system of writing and printing believers testimonies for reaching those who dont know christ.
thank you for this post. I just got introduced to you through a mutual friend.God bless you. great to see that you work together with a very good friend Peter Lowe.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Tau,my advice is if you hear His voice do not harden your heart , obedience is better thatn sacrifice , God bless you
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Mary;
There is a growing body of people waking up to the horror that is our financial system. I do not know if Ron Paul shares my sentiments to the letter but he is the only candidate that even comes close and I support him wholeheartedly. Printing pictures of dead presidents on worthless pieces of paper backed by nothing of value and calling it money should be a crime and it is disallowed by our constitution - a document our leaders are sworn to uphold but don’t. Ron Paul would be the exception except if it even looked like he was going to win, he would most likely have the same fate as Bobby Kennedy in ‘68.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Yes Michael, we are cetainly living in turbulent times. We need, each one of us, to develop a deeper walk with Jesus, to be led by His Spirit hourly and daily. I think He wants us to get into a place of cleansing and fasting as well. I am a natural therapist and He has been speaking to me about this for many years now. He dwells in unapproachable light and when He appears we shall recognise Him because we shall be like Him. Cleansed Holy Spirit temples are very important to Him. Since leaving a lot of church nonsense and getting closer to Him I have realised this is the most important thing in my whole life! I, we are the church and we are surrounded by dying people who have never heard the true gospel!
January 22nd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
I agree, this is a tumultuous time, but, for the believer, there is nothing to fear. We should progress, glorifying God in all that we do for the time that we have toward the victory he has won!
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:42 pm
If everyone who thought that Ron Paul had no chance voted for him anyway, then he would definitely win. He took second place in Nevada and has more votes than the media would want everyone to know. He is a threat to the status quo and current political agenda. We should elect him, then cover him in prayer. Then maybe this country would have a chance to get back on her God ordained track. At least it would send a message to the others in Government. Those of us who support him must share the truth with those who don’t. I find many who I speak to haven’t even heard of Ron Paul, but most are interested and agree to investigate further. That is all I can ask. This shall be an interesting year indeed.
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Just to be clear… I agree with you Mary. I am voting for Ron Paul. I have financially supported his campaign and I encourage everyone to consider doing the same. Mike Huckabee I suspect is a fine man, but one who is part of the status quo and Republican establishment. The only Republican primary where the the 2nd and 3rd place winners weren’t mentioned was Nevada. The one Ron Paul came in 2nd place. The media hate him and fear him and so does the status quo. That should tell you something right there.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Many people have mentioned Ron Paul. So I decided to comment on him.
Thomas Jefferson seems to disagree with Ron Paul when he said, “The care of human life and not its destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government.”
I respect Ron Paul’s courage in taking many minority opinions in Congress and at the Summit. I respect his commitment to stand by his principles, even when it’s unpopular. I would support him if I didn’t believe he’s wrong in a number of significant areas. I’m convinced the sanctity of human life must include not only the unborn, but other defenseless people (such as Terry Schiavo), beginning in our own country and extending to places where we at least have some influence on our international trade partners.
Kern
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Hi - I’m Neill Newton - CEO - Global Flying Hospitals - www.gloflyhos.org
Tumultuous upheaval, uncertainty and a “whole lot of shakin’ going on” are the high powered verbs that have become adjectives to describe our ailing world. And Michael is correct again; the world’s foundations are corrupt and corroded. Being based in Asia, I see production of products that we buy at rock bottom prices here, that once a ‘brand name’ is attached, the West pays at mind-blowing prices. I see wealth created and flouted before my eyes in this region. Millionaires are being created overnight while others die before my eyes. I see beggars in the streets sitting under the signs of the big brand names.
Why? Avarice and greed of big business selling images to stoke the pride, selfishness and envy of the masses. It’s all about money … getting as much of it as you can. Advertisements reek of it! Gimme, gimme, gimme … buy my product for no other reason but for my avarice!
Nations are rising at rocket speed, fueled by money, to take the lead. Money debt is pulling other nations and their people down. Our environment, health, lifestyles and nations are being destroyed by the race for money. But in the hands of good men and women, who know how to use it for God, who know how to use it for their communities improvement, who know how to heal, improve, develop and undergird it with prayer and spiritual guidance, they are the ones who remain the “salt” of the earth.
I personally believe that this is just the beginning. I see in my mind’s eye some truly humungous upheavals happening that will stupefy most. I see our lifestyles about to undergo radical change. Those changes will be a mighty force that will add untold numbers to God’s kingdom, while other changes will be destructive for many.
Personally, I believe it’s now TIME to get real serious with God. Time to truly examine where we stand. Time to reposition our lives, business, attitudes and vision. Time to “pursue” God, time to make very serious money … and do some very serious things for the Lord.
Neill Newton
neillnewton@gmail.com
www.gloflyhos.org
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:53 am
I would like yo receive materials on that.Please i am personal Ministry Director,Literature,and Lay Evangelist in the Central Seventh-Day ADVENTIST
Church of the East Ghana Conference at Koforidua-E/R.Please i need Materials which will help me do the Gospel work to get intouch of the heart of many souls to be won them for the Lord Jesus in this end time event;And materials that will help activate my Church with spiritual growth and Evangelism.Kindly include CDs,VIDEOS,DVD’s,and CASSETTES.
Hoping to hear from your favorably.
Yours in His Service,
Samuel K.Odame.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:56 am
Kern; I am interested in your comments regarding Ron Paul. Your quote of Thomas Jefferson seems to imply that Dr. Paul may not value human life as highly. As a medical doctor he helped deliver over 4000 babies. If the mother had no insurance or money, he would deliver the baby and care for both without charge. He firmly supports a pro-life position and was deeply grieved by the Terri Schiavo case. You can read what he wrote at the time by going here http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul243.html.
He believes in a strong defense, but not invading other countries under the pretense of one thing to accomplish another. He believes in a “just war” when it is truly justified and not just war simply to accomplish economic objectives. He further believes that the constitution should be obeyed and that means among other things, that Congress must make a declaration of war before going into war. Something we tend not to do anymore.
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:13 am
When persecution comes, remember Romans 12:19. Here is a great story of persecuted Christians.
January, 1999 Graham Staines and his two sons, Phillip (10) and Timothy (6) were mobbed by radical Hindus, trapped inside their vehicle in Monoharpur, Orissa, India, and burned alive. The three charred bodies were recovered clinging to each other. Graham Staines had spent 34 years serving the people of India in the name of Jesus. He was the director of the LeProsy Mission in Baripada, Orissa.
He left behind his widow Gladys and daughter Esther. And you may remember that her response was in every paper in India to the glory of Christ. She said, a few days after the martyrdom of her husband and sons, “I have only one message for the people of India. I’m not bitter. Neither am I angry. But I have one great desire: that each citizen of this country should establish a personal relationship with Jesus Christ who gave his life for their sins . . . let us burn hatred and spread the flame of Christ’s love.”
Everyone thought she would move back to Australia. No. She said God had called them to India, and she would not leave. She said, “My husband and our children have sacrificed their lives for this nation; India is my home. I hope to be here and continue to serve the needy.” Then, perhaps most remarkable of all—listen to this all you who are teenagers—her daughter Esther was asked how she felt about the murder of her dad, and the thirteen year old, said, “I praise the Lord that He found my father worthy to die for Him.”
O churches, do we not want to be like this and to grow young people like this, and to spread a passion for this great sovereign God of mercy and justice everywhere!
Mercy and justice. The great challenge for us is to learn how they mingle in human life and history. Romans verse 19: “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Do you see both mercy and justice here? You who are mistreated do not take justice into your hands. Do not seek vengeance.
Trust and obey that is our command
Kern
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:53 am
Michael,
Concerning Ron Paul
A number of Ron Paul supporters encouraged me to check into him. I did so, going to his website and elsewhere. As with other candidates, I found the most helpful information by reading and listening to his words at the Values Voters Debate.
Despite my appreciation for his stand against abortion, and my impression that he is sincere and honest, I am concerned about a number of Ron Paul’s positions. For instance, regarding radical Islam and terrorism, he said:
We have to understand the motives of those who come here & kill us. If we don’t understand that, we are not going to win this fight. They come here and kill us because we occupy their lands, and they rationally reason [that] we have to do something about it.
This seems a naïve response. Like “they’re only defending themselves, and if we stay away from them, they won’t try to hurt us.” In contrast, Mike Huckabee responded,
The threat we face is one a lot of Americans don’t fully comprehend or understand. This isn’t a typical geo-political war. It’s a war against an enemy that has no national borders or boundaries. It’s a theological war. It’s not politically correct to say that. It’s just the truth. We are fighting people whose religious fanaticism will not be satisfied until every last one of us is dead, until our culture, our society, is completely obliterated from the face of the earth. It is the perfect marriage of religion & state, and that’s why it is so incredibly dangerous, more so than any enemy we face. And here’s the reality. War is about will. Whoever chooses to leave loses. We can’t afford to lose, because this is not a war about Iraq, it’s not a war about Afghanistan, it’s a war about our survival as a civilization and as a people, and every effort must be made to defend this great country against it.
At the debate, there was a series of questions in response to which every other candidate took the same position except Ron Paul (which would be to his credit, if they were all wrong and he was right). One related to endorsing attempts to protect Iraqi Christians under provisions in Iraq’s existing constitution. Only Ron Paul said no to this.
I was moved when Bobby Schindler said to the candidates, “I’m with the Terry Schindler Schiavo Foundation. My beloved sister starved and dehydrated to death in a land of abundance, while the world watched—because she was disabled and unable to speak for herself. My question is, would you pursue or support legislation that would protect the cognitively disabled from being dehydrated to death by having their food and water taken away?”
Again, Ron Paul voted no. All the others voted yes.
Janet Folger, who was at the Summit, appraised Paul this way:
Here’s what I saw: While he’s been a courageous defender of the Constitution, Ron Paul had too many wrong answers at the Values Voter Debate to receive our support. Save your angry e-mails until you’ve seen the video of his podium lit “red” with “no votes” while everyone else voted “yes” to questions about whether they would protect disabled patients like Terri Schiavo from a starvation death, agree to prosecute all violators of the federal obscenity law, and support a trade policy with China contingent on improved human rights and quality standards.
Joe Glover of the Family Policy Network clarified it further when he asked Paul: “Many libertarians oppose laws against same-sex marriage, prostitution, and illegal drugs. Do you share this view?” Go watch it for yourself at http://www.valuesvoterdebate.com/. His answer was “yes,” he’s a libertarian and doesn’t think the government has any business protecting marriage and human life.
Again, I do appreciate some of his stances but not all. I have mentioned some of my concerns but I have listed the web sites for everyone to study for themselves.
For the recored, I disagree a lot with all the candidates and have not decided who I will support. I quoted Mike Huckabee but I also find some bothering things he did as governor.
Kern
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:18 am
Kern; Sadly the red light / green light does not give us the understanding behind the color of the light. For instance, with Terry Schiavo, it appears you may not have read his explanation in a detailed article I posted above. In short, he doesn’t want the government making life and death decisions about people in Terry’s condition. The government cannot be trusted to make quality decisions in this regard. It should be up to the family. In the article he explains why.
As for the motives of radical muslims, Ron Paul makes a plainly obvious statement… We are in their land, controlling their natural resources, setting up military bases and shaping their governments to suit our interests. And somehow that is considered naive? It is fundamentally true.
On the other hand that isn’t to say that Huckabee is wrong when he talks about their fanaticism. I believe he is also correct, but the solution is not endless war with endless occupation which is the current American way. Rudy Giuliani told me over dinner one evening with about 10 others present that of course this war was about oil. The rest of the hyped up media on television outlets that make sport out of corrupting news feed us a stream of other images that motivate us to send our young men to fight and die in the name of freedom. They are honorable men and women who love our country and fight for what they believe in. It is a great sadness to me that the military is more for the enforcement of corporate interests than for the safety and protection of civilians.
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Michael & Kern,
I wanted also to comment on the Ron Paul issue. First, I respect you both as brothers in Christ and your opinions which may or may not differ from mine on varied issues. All that to say is that my comments are hopefully just about issues. I’m sure we don’t agree on everything, if we did, we’d all be the same. At the same time, we are all the same at the foot of the cross.
I know it’s not possible to fully express views and discuss issues and understand one another in a forum such as this.
I cannot agree that radical Islam is fighting us because we occupy their land. We did not occupy any land prior to 9/11. Economic purposes may have been an issue, but the issue with Iraq was that they had weapons of mass destruction and a dictator who flouted numerous UN resolutions to clean up his act. As with children, if you do not discipline them repeatedly, i.e., enforce the rules, they become rebellious and have a disdain for authority. So much more for someone with much more power and with a toothless UN, a corrupt agency at best, we had to act. We could not wait for others to approve and given the circumstances and the context at the time, I believe it was the right decision. I heard one Christian leader say that the mind of Saddam Hussein was a weapon of mass destruction. How true.
As far as having laws to protect life: I fully agree that the government should not make decisions where family is involved. However, this is a very slippery slope. In Schiavo’s case, her parents and others conveyed that they believed she would have wanted to live. Her husband, an adulterer (not judging, just observing) could have divorced her years before but did not. Why? While we don’t know his heart - it could be that as a Catholic, he did not believe in divorce - but adultery was okay? The line of reasoning as far as the decision to save/continue life vs. not - this is not our call, it’s is God’s call. I know there are good arguments on both sides, but in a case like Schiavo’s where there was much evidence to the contrary of her husband’s views, not a good thing. Do we then empower the state to make the decision because of one case? No, but we do need to protect life in all cases. Otherwise, murder’s okay, abortion’s okay, etc. We do need laws. The problem with Libertarians in one sense (from my observation) is that they believe in lawlessness. Want to do drugs? Go ahead. Want to be “married” to another of the same sex? Go ahead. Want to have an abortion? Go ahead. The argument is that you are not hurting anyone else. That is a lie. You are hurting God and sinning against God. There is no moral vacuum.
And what about the people in Iraq who risked life and limb (literally) to vote in elections? About the 95% who were happy that we were there, which I’ve heard firsthand from military that are over there. We cannot just leave and let it go.
I’ve got more to say on this but I’ll stop.
Blessings to everyone,
Dennis
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Is Ron Paul against abortion?
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Patricia;
Yes Ron Paul is against abortion. In fact, just this week he was endorsed by Jane Roe of the famous Roe V Wade abortion case. The LA Times reported, “Jane Roe,” whose real name is Norma McCorvey, turned against abortion a decade ago. In her endorsement Tuesday she said, “I support Ron Paul for president because we share the same goal, that of overturning Roe v. Wade. He has never wavered…. on the issue of being pro-life and has a voting record to prove it. He understands the importance of civil liberties for all, including the unborn.”
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Michael.
I disagree with you on the government’s role. The government must be trusted to make quality decisions in this regard. When you have someone in Terry’s condition, the government must step up and support human life.
Kern
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Kern;
I sincerely thank you for your meaningful contribution to this debate. Romans 13 gives an overview of the role of government and yet leaves room for debate. Unlike you, I find myself beyond the place in life I can trust the government to make quality decisions on my behalf. Not to say that there isn’t good government policy now and I expect there will be in the future on occasion. I’m just not one with that much trust. I would rather trust my wife or children to make the right decision for me. Blessings, Michael
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Kern,
The Bible, not personal opinion should rule in things like this.
I am reminded of a couple of scriptures here: Ephesians 5:23 - For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
I guess that makes it the husband’s decision, not ours and definitely not the government’s.
And
1 Thessalonians 4:11 (The Message)
Stay calm; mind your own business; do your own job. You’ve heard all this from us before, but a reminder never hurts.
also read Prov. 20:3
I am also reminded of an old Indian saying that goes something like: “Walk a mile in my moccasins before you criticize me.”
I think this could apply here as well: Prov. 18:13
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Mary,
Thank you for your thoughts.
Kern
January 24th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Hey Dennis;
First of all, you never have to worry about having a different or even conflicting viewpoint than me. I know that I am dead wrong on some things. If I knew which ones they were, I would of course change my perspective, but if that happened then I would be right about everything all the time and we both know that won’t happen… (o-; And so it is with us all. I enjoy vigorous debate done with respect because it helps us all come to a more perfect understanding of what is true. Or at least it has that potential. Having said that I very much welcome your feedback and Kern’s and everyone else who has posted or who wants to post. Now to your key points…
You believe the US did not occupy any land (presumably in the Middle East) before 9/11. In point of fact we have had bases in Saudia Arabia from where most of the 9/11 hijackers came and we are now building an additional 14 permanent bases in Iraq. For some perspective on the Saudi angle, look here… http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/beito2.html
Sadaam Hussein may well have had a mind of mass destruction. He was an evil man but absolutely not a threat to the US. He had no navy, no airforce and his army was 1/3 the strength it was in the early 90’s. The chemical weapons he had were originally provided to him by the USA when he served our purpose, just like we funded Osama Bin Laden in the ’80’s and called his fighters “Freedom Fighters” to justify our generous support of his cause, even though he hated us too. He was just busy fighting the Soviets at the time in Afghanistan.
As for the Libertarian point of view, I am not an apologist for their cause nor am I student of their viewpoint. Nevertheless, government should have a very limited role in our lives… simply to execute wrath upon him who does evil and praise those who do good. (Rom 13).
But we must look further than one verse to understand what laws are appropriate… Consider this… not all sins were punishable by laws. Most of our laws were originally based on Old Testament law but there were and are many sins such as drunkeness or getting high on drugs there not against the law. They are sinful and carry with them their own punishment. When government steps in it usually inhibits the liberty (freedom) of many to control the sin of a few. You can’t really put doing drugs and abortion on the same level. One is a sin and the other is both a sin and a crime (Biblically).
I gotta stop too for now… Blessings, Michael
January 24th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Michael,
Thanks for your comments. I find for myself that those I disagree with, especially my brothers and sisters, have been my greatest opportunities for growth - after I’ve been humbled and seen where I’m getting it. The good thing about being humbled as we know is that it leads to life.
Had a couple of questions - as far as Saudi Arabia, why are we their and at who’s request? I believe it’s at their request, so while some in their country - the more radical Islamists - disagree, their government wants us there. Sure, it’s to protect our interests in oil, which does protect our country. It also protect their economic interest in that we are major consumers of their product.
I know you know all of this, we are also protectors of Israel, which I believe God has blessed for taking that position. As He said in Genesis, whoever blesses them I will bless, and whoever curses them I will curse. As with any government of men, it’s prone to make mistakes at varying levels but in the bigger picture of God’s plan, there’s more to it. We are in one sense getting God’s blessing for helping Israel, exporting the gospel and yet in another sense, probably God’s judgement for abortion and the exportation of filth in pornography (for one thing).
As far as serving our purposes abroad with varying outcomes, initially and long-term - Hussein, for example: hindsight is always 20:20 (I know you know that!). We do what we think is in our country’s best interest at the time, and yes it has come back to bite us. However, we can’t just step out of the picture. The threat of the spread of communism would have/could have impacted us eventually had we not acted. England experienced much hardship with Chamberlain because he did not discern the threat of Hitler when others rightly discerned it and called for action. Again, American is not perfect, and as Joshua asked who side the Lord is on, I don’t believe that God is on one side or the other. He’s not an “American” God as much of what particular parties attribute to Him. He’s on his side. As Lincoln said (paraphrased), I do not know whose side God is on, but I want to be on His side.
On the government issue, only God’s government will remain eventually! Still, Jesus did pay taxes and said to render to Caesar what is his. Romans 13 does talk about execution of wrath, but also in that context says to pay tax to whom tax is due. Governments need money to be run. Rick Joyner has said that Democracy is not perfect -again because man is involved - yet it is good. We know from business that bureaucracy is not efficient and really, even the best businesses struggle with efficiency and improving. I am, too, for more limited government. One of the candidates recently mentioned amending the constitution to prohibit abortion, and there was a harsh outcry. If we believe the country was founded on Scripture, we would welcome this. The problem at times seems to be (for some) elevating the consitution above the Word of God. Again, we can’t legislate morality - it’s a heart issue. We can, however, have deturrents in place that slow the tide of evil. We see this in European countries where drugs are legal, assisted suicide is legal, and there is such darkness because of this, among other things. We also see in Romans that no authority is in place except that God has placed them there. Even in judgement in the OT, God raised up ungodly kings to judge Israel.
Phew, I’ve got more too, but these issues are important to debate as you said. I believe the more I talk and more importantly listen, the better clarity I get on the issues, so thanks again for this forum.
Finally, the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5) and only by love can we rightly discern (Philippians 1).
Bless you my brother for all that you do to help your brothers and sisters and to further the kingdom!
Dennis
January 24th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Dennis,
I very much enjoyed your comments. They are very well spoken. I would like to add a few comments and appreciate this opportunity to share.
First, America is not a Democracy, but a Republic. To understand the difference, follow this link:
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
Understanding the difference, I think, will help in understanding our Government’s role in our lives.
Second, you are absolutely right that one can not legislate morality. I also agree with Michael that certain sins reap their own consequence. God intends to write His law upon our hearts. When that happens, no one needs to make laws. One’s God-nature guides him to to do what is right. Like I tell my son all of the time, it is a love thing….love God and love people. True love of God and people will lead one to the right thing to do in every situation. This is something we all grow in every day of our lives for none is perfect except Jesus. Referring to the greatest law, Jesus said in Mark 12:29-31 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
This tells us that morality is a spiritual not legal issue. Yes, punishments help some as God regularly punished the disobedient to get them back on track. However, if the heart is not changed, then like Isreal, one will return to their sin. So more laws aren’t the answer. A personal relationship with Jesus is. This we must understand is our first priority…to win the unsaved to Jesus. And how will we do that? By the love we have for one another. One of the candidates stated that he was first an American and second a Christian. This is someone with their priorities out of whack. We are Christians advancing the Kingdom of God in the earth. This is why a Biblical unerstanding of the issues is important.
Just a thought to consider…yes, the Bible says that no authority is in place except that God has placed them there, but when Isreal asked for an earthly King, God said they were rejecting Him as King. Yes, he gave them a King, but that was not His intent for the government of His people. Exactly what kind of government do we want? Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.
As for God not taking sides, God does take sides…he takes the side of the righteous. David wrote clearly about this in the Psalms. What I believe He was saying to Joshua was that He wasn’t there to fight, but to give instruction. He was the Boss. Like you said, He is on His side and invites us to join with Him. However, in Acts 14:3 it says, “So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.” This, in my thinking, is taking sides. And when He blesses those who bless and curses those who curse, that is taking sides. But this can lead into another whole study of who we are in Jesus, so I will stop here.
God bless,
Mary
January 24th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Dennis… I love your spirit and your questions. There is so much I want to respond with but time restricts. May I suggest you get this book by John Weaver? It’s called The Christian and Civil Government. I don’t know him personally but recommend his short book to all. It is based on Romans 13 and will give you a viewpoint not commonly taught today but was once prevalent in America. It might surprise you to know that preachers like Samuel West in the late 1700’s preached from Romans 13 a sermon called, “On the Right to Rebel”. I digress. Here’s the weblink to get the book for $7 http://cgi.ebay.com/The-christian-and-Civil-Government-Pastor-John-Weaver_W0QQitemZ160160119931QQcmdZViewItem
January 24th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Thank you for posting this! It was just the encouragement I needed today. I’ve recently stepped out in faith to begin a business offering affordable publishing services (particularly to ministers). My intention was to do this “after hours” and the end of my secular workday. It seemed as though the moment I stepped out, the “security” of my secular job was threatened, and my 40+hrs work week was dropped down to 8-16hrs. I do have confidence that God is with me, but eeesh! the sea! It’s so easy to look at the waves and get confused and lose focus of why I stepped out in the first place. I’m so glad I serve the Master who beckons me to come, empowers me to walk, and then lifts me up when I falter. Thanks again.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Michael,
Thanks, I’ll check out the book, thanks for the recommendation! Appreciate your words as well.
Blessings!
Dennis