Thanks, I’ll check out the book, thanks for the recommendation! Appreciate your words as well.

Blessings!
Dennis

I very much enjoyed your comments. They are very well spoken. I would like to add a few comments and appreciate this opportunity to share.

First, America is not a Democracy, but a Republic. To understand the difference, follow this link:

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

Understanding the difference, I think, will help in understanding our Government’s role in our lives.

Second, you are absolutely right that one can not legislate morality. I also agree with Michael that certain sins reap their own consequence. God intends to write His law upon our hearts. When that happens, no one needs to make laws. One’s God-nature guides him to to do what is right. Like I tell my son all of the time, it is a love thing….love God and love people. True love of God and people will lead one to the right thing to do in every situation. This is something we all grow in every day of our lives for none is perfect except Jesus. Referring to the greatest law, Jesus said in Mark 12:29-31 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

This tells us that morality is a spiritual not legal issue. Yes, punishments help some as God regularly punished the disobedient to get them back on track. However, if the heart is not changed, then like Isreal, one will return to their sin. So more laws aren’t the answer. A personal relationship with Jesus is. This we must understand is our first priority…to win the unsaved to Jesus. And how will we do that? By the love we have for one another. One of the candidates stated that he was first an American and second a Christian. This is someone with their priorities out of whack. We are Christians advancing the Kingdom of God in the earth. This is why a Biblical unerstanding of the issues is important.

Just a thought to consider…yes, the Bible says that no authority is in place except that God has placed them there, but when Isreal asked for an earthly King, God said they were rejecting Him as King. Yes, he gave them a King, but that was not His intent for the government of His people. Exactly what kind of government do we want? Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

As for God not taking sides, God does take sides…he takes the side of the righteous. David wrote clearly about this in the Psalms. What I believe He was saying to Joshua was that He wasn’t there to fight, but to give instruction. He was the Boss. Like you said, He is on His side and invites us to join with Him. However, in Acts 14:3 it says, “So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.” This, in my thinking, is taking sides. And when He blesses those who bless and curses those who curse, that is taking sides. But this can lead into another whole study of who we are in Jesus, so I will stop here.

God bless,
Mary

Thanks for your comments. I find for myself that those I disagree with, especially my brothers and sisters, have been my greatest opportunities for growth - after I’ve been humbled and seen where I’m getting it. The good thing about being humbled as we know is that it leads to life.

Had a couple of questions - as far as Saudi Arabia, why are we their and at who’s request? I believe it’s at their request, so while some in their country - the more radical Islamists - disagree, their government wants us there. Sure, it’s to protect our interests in oil, which does protect our country. It also protect their economic interest in that we are major consumers of their product.

I know you know all of this, we are also protectors of Israel, which I believe God has blessed for taking that position. As He said in Genesis, whoever blesses them I will bless, and whoever curses them I will curse. As with any government of men, it’s prone to make mistakes at varying levels but in the bigger picture of God’s plan, there’s more to it. We are in one sense getting God’s blessing for helping Israel, exporting the gospel and yet in another sense, probably God’s judgement for abortion and the exportation of filth in pornography (for one thing).

As far as serving our purposes abroad with varying outcomes, initially and long-term - Hussein, for example: hindsight is always 20:20 (I know you know that!). We do what we think is in our country’s best interest at the time, and yes it has come back to bite us. However, we can’t just step out of the picture. The threat of the spread of communism would have/could have impacted us eventually had we not acted. England experienced much hardship with Chamberlain because he did not discern the threat of Hitler when others rightly discerned it and called for action. Again, American is not perfect, and as Joshua asked who side the Lord is on, I don’t believe that God is on one side or the other. He’s not an “American” God as much of what particular parties attribute to Him. He’s on his side. As Lincoln said (paraphrased), I do not know whose side God is on, but I want to be on His side.

On the government issue, only God’s government will remain eventually! Still, Jesus did pay taxes and said to render to Caesar what is his. Romans 13 does talk about execution of wrath, but also in that context says to pay tax to whom tax is due. Governments need money to be run. Rick Joyner has said that Democracy is not perfect -again because man is involved - yet it is good. We know from business that bureaucracy is not efficient and really, even the best businesses struggle with efficiency and improving. I am, too, for more limited government. One of the candidates recently mentioned amending the constitution to prohibit abortion, and there was a harsh outcry. If we believe the country was founded on Scripture, we would welcome this. The problem at times seems to be (for some) elevating the consitution above the Word of God. Again, we can’t legislate morality - it’s a heart issue. We can, however, have deturrents in place that slow the tide of evil. We see this in European countries where drugs are legal, assisted suicide is legal, and there is such darkness because of this, among other things. We also see in Romans that no authority is in place except that God has placed them there. Even in judgement in the OT, God raised up ungodly kings to judge Israel.

Phew, I’ve got more too, but these issues are important to debate as you said. I believe the more I talk and more importantly listen, the better clarity I get on the issues, so thanks again for this forum.

Finally, the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5) and only by love can we rightly discern (Philippians 1).

Bless you my brother for all that you do to help your brothers and sisters and to further the kingdom!

Dennis

First of all, you never have to worry about having a different or even conflicting viewpoint than me. I know that I am dead wrong on some things. If I knew which ones they were, I would of course change my perspective, but if that happened then I would be right about everything all the time and we both know that won’t happen… (o-; And so it is with us all. I enjoy vigorous debate done with respect because it helps us all come to a more perfect understanding of what is true. Or at least it has that potential. Having said that I very much welcome your feedback and Kern’s and everyone else who has posted or who wants to post. Now to your key points…

You believe the US did not occupy any land (presumably in the Middle East) before 9/11. In point of fact we have had bases in Saudia Arabia from where most of the 9/11 hijackers came and we are now building an additional 14 permanent bases in Iraq. For some perspective on the Saudi angle, look here… http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/beito2.html

Sadaam Hussein may well have had a mind of mass destruction. He was an evil man but absolutely not a threat to the US. He had no navy, no airforce and his army was 1/3 the strength it was in the early 90’s. The chemical weapons he had were originally provided to him by the USA when he served our purpose, just like we funded Osama Bin Laden in the ’80’s and called his fighters “Freedom Fighters” to justify our generous support of his cause, even though he hated us too. He was just busy fighting the Soviets at the time in Afghanistan.

As for the Libertarian point of view, I am not an apologist for their cause nor am I student of their viewpoint. Nevertheless, government should have a very limited role in our lives… simply to execute wrath upon him who does evil and praise those who do good. (Rom 13).

But we must look further than one verse to understand what laws are appropriate… Consider this… not all sins were punishable by laws. Most of our laws were originally based on Old Testament law but there were and are many sins such as drunkeness or getting high on drugs there not against the law. They are sinful and carry with them their own punishment. When government steps in it usually inhibits the liberty (freedom) of many to control the sin of a few. You can’t really put doing drugs and abortion on the same level. One is a sin and the other is both a sin and a crime (Biblically).

I gotta stop too for now… Blessings, Michael

Thank you for your thoughts.

Kern

The Bible, not personal opinion should rule in things like this.

I am reminded of a couple of scriptures here: Ephesians 5:23 - For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

I guess that makes it the husband’s decision, not ours and definitely not the government’s.

And

1 Thessalonians 4:11 (The Message)
Stay calm; mind your own business; do your own job. You’ve heard all this from us before, but a reminder never hurts.

also read Prov. 20:3

I am also reminded of an old Indian saying that goes something like: “Walk a mile in my moccasins before you criticize me.”

I think this could apply here as well: Prov. 18:13

I sincerely thank you for your meaningful contribution to this debate. Romans 13 gives an overview of the role of government and yet leaves room for debate. Unlike you, I find myself beyond the place in life I can trust the government to make quality decisions on my behalf. Not to say that there isn’t good government policy now and I expect there will be in the future on occasion. I’m just not one with that much trust. I would rather trust my wife or children to make the right decision for me. Blessings, Michael

I disagree with you on the government’s role. The government must be trusted to make quality decisions in this regard. When you have someone in Terry’s condition, the government must step up and support human life.

Kern