ChristianBusinessDaily.com Endorses Ron Paul for President
February 4th, 2008 | Michael Q. Pink
Hello Friend,
I wanted to pass along a quick message for your consideration. The editorial team at ChristianBusinessDaily.com has made an announcement today that they are endorsing Ron Paul for the Republican nomination in this year’s U.S. Presidential Election. They sent out the following message to their subscribers today:
A Message from Ron Paul
America became the greatest, most prosperous nation in history through low taxes, constitutionally limited government, personal freedom, and a belief in sound money. We need to return to those principles so our economy can thrive once again.
Other candidates talk a lot about stimulus packages, but my record stands alone. I have fought for these measures in Congress as the Ranking Member on the House Financial Services Committee’s Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade and Technology, and as a member of the Joint Economic Committee, and will fight for their passage as president.
My plan entails four points: Tax Reform, Spending Reform, Monetary Policy Reform, and Regulatory Reform.
Tax reform means reducing the tax burden and eliminating taxes that punish investment and savings, including job-killing corporate taxes. If we cut spending to the level it was at under the Clinton administration, we can permanently do away with the income tax and the IRS. No true conservative would say that government was too small during the Clinton years!
There are several steps we can take to immediately ease the tax burden. I have proposed H.J. Res 23, which would repeal the Sixteenth Amendment and thus eliminate income, estate, and capital gains taxes. H.R. 191 would repeal President Clinton’s 1993 increase in taxes on Social Security benefits, while H.R. 192 would repeal all taxes on Social Security benefits. I also support legislation to accelerate depreciation on investment and end the practice of taxing forgiven mortgage debt.
In the area of spending reform, I want to eliminate wasteful spending, reduce overseas commitments, and freeze all non-defense, non-entitlement spending at current levels. I never vote for pork-laden bills, and I will veto them and any unbalanced budget as president. We need to refocus our national defense so that we guard our own borders, instead those of other nations. We can save billions if we stop subsidizing our trading partners in Europe, Japan, South Korea and other nations. Congress does not have the constitutional authority to send out foreign aid, and our current foreign policy of nation building is bankrupting us.
Monetary policy reform means expanding openness at the Federal Reserve and requiring the Fed to televise its meetings, as well as returning to sound money. Washington’s disastrous fiscal policies, marked by shameless deficit spending and Federal Reserve currency devaluation, are some of the greatest threats facing our nation today. It is this one-two punch - Congress spending more than it can tax or borrow, and the Treasury printing money to make up the difference - that threatens to impoverish us by further destroying the value of our dollars. It’s time to end the fiat money system, legalize competing currencies, and restore soundness to our dollar.
Finally, we need to institute true regulatory reform by repealing Sarb anes/Oxley’s regulations that push companies to seek capital outside of U.S. markets. Congress’ rush to action after the Enron scandal gave us a bill that has heavily burdened small businesses and driven companies offshore. I also support repealing federal regulations that prevent financial institutions such as independent and community banks and credit unions from fostering economic growth.
A true package to stimulate the economy not only puts money back in Americans’ pockets, it deals with the underlying causes of our current situation - an out-of-control foreign policy, runaway deficit spending, and currency devaluation brought on by the Federal Reserve’s inflationary policies. When enacted, my plan will provide both short-term stimulus and lay the groundwork for long-term prosperity.
You can see the full endorsement from ChristianBusinessDaily.com’s editors here.
Blessings,
Michael
February 4th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Who asked you?
Chasing Ron Paul’s crazy dream is a surefire way to put Hillary in the White House.
Instead, if you’re going to endorse a candidate, you should endorse a candidate who can win, and will do some good. Mitt Romney fits that description, and not voting for him because of his Mormon faith is as bigoted as voting for a woman or a black simply because she’s a woman or he’s black.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Ron Paul cannot win. And some of his ideas are good but not all. Some are downright goofy.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I thought this was a true christian site, but with the endorsement of Paul I question that. He wants to abandon our friends around the world and let them fend for themselves. Where would that leave countries like Israel who are surrounded by enemies.
and the other post that said not voting for a Mormon is bigoted is just wrong, a cult member is not the same as being a woman or black. You can chose to believe any crazy nut but you can’t chose your sex or race.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
What concerns me is his ideology concerning the Middle East. Sounds dangerous. He just wants to pull out ASAP.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I see that you are endorsing Ron Paul. I am wondering why. I know that it is a sad state of affairs when you have to vote for someone who you really don’t want to have elected just so someone worse is not elected. But we have been thinking that that is what is necessary for our country this year. It doesn’t look like Mr. Paul really has a chance, and my prayers are that a stronger true conservative would step up within the next few weeks before the convention.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I think we have to be careful to not say that someone can’t possibly be elected. John McCain was written off just a few short months ago and now he is one of the leading contenders.
The majority of the world is not Christian. Do we stop trying to disciple and convert because we are not the majority? Don’t we have to lead (and vote) where our heart and our faith leads us? Isn’t God in charge of the outcome?
February 4th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
I will say it,,Ron Paul cannot be elected. That is reality. Unless God performs a miracle which I do not see Him doing. The country and us Christians, deserve McCain or one of the Democrats.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Kern, aren’t you often the minority as a Christian? Aren’t your views often very different than those around you? Should people write you off for not being in the majority? As Christians, aren’t we supposed to take the high road?
Don’t mistake my comments as an endorsement for Ron Paul, but rather just pointing out that we need to follow who we feel will best represent our views, regardless of how popular they are.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Thank you, Michael, for mentioning our endorsement. Anyone who is interested can check out our published reasons for endorsing Ron Paul here:
ChristianBusinessDaily.com Endorses Ron Paul for President
February 4th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
FROM RON PAUL WEBSITE:
On my first day as commander-in-chief, I will direct the Joint Chiefs of Staff and our commanders on the ground to devise and execute a plan to immediately withdraw our troops in the safest manner possible.
What makes him any different from the the Democrat’s cut & run!
February 4th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I think it’s interesting that Michael chose to inform the audience about the ChristianBusinessDaily.com endorsement and he has drawn so much fire for doing so.
Chris:
Ron Paul’s “crazy dream” coincides remarkably with that of the “crazy Founding Fathers” who sacrificed their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to create a free society with decentralized government, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and countless other freedoms that our society has been in the process of abandoning little by little.
There are numerous areas in which Ron Paul’s stance for liberty differs significantly from Mitt Romney’s, and none of them have to do with Romney’s Mormonism.
Personally, after evaluating the positions of all of the other Republican candidates, I can find no true conservatives among them. They will, by all appearances, follow in the footsteps of President Bush who has (even if you completely ignore the war in Iraq) outspent Bill Clinton! Bush if by far anything but conservative. Only Congressman Paul has outlined a serious plan for reducing our enormously oversized government.
To Brent: the “cut & run” democrats also have plans to force you into numerous Socialist programs, not the least of which is forced participation in some sort of universal health care plan. They view your paycheck (not to mention those of your children and grandchildren) as fair game for whatever entitlement programs they can dream up to get votes.
Ron Paul rightly pointed out in 2002 that we didn’t belong in Iraq. He denounced the ill-contrived rationale for the invasion long before it was popular. He has never changed his position. If we aren’t careful over there, we will incite yet further conflict unnecessarily at the cost of thousands of American lives and Billions (if not Trillions) of dollars that we don’t have in order to accomplish little, if anything.
I, for one, appreciate the fact that Michael Pink has created an opportunity for open discussion about this critical election. Where else would we have the opportunity to bring diverse opinions together and have a conversation amongst those who are ultimately on the same team?
Blessings.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I’d urge you to vote for the ONLY candidate who consistently votes according to the U. S. Constitution. That’s an incredible statement to make in 2008, but it is absolutely true.
Every other candidate, of both parties, panders to special interest groups intent on wielding power to force their personal morality on us and/or to tax, spend and regulate the economy to further the goals of their special interest groups.
The official gatekeepers of the mainstream media have done their best to ignore and belittle Ron Paul to convince you that the only “viable” candidates are those picked by the Power Brokers behind the scenes. They’d like you to think that you are “wasting your vote” unless you vote for one of their “lesser of two evils” candidates.
On Tuesday you can tell the mainstream media and their handlers that you will not act like one of their docile sheep and pull the lever for one of their lackeys by voting for Ron Paul.
Remember: the lesser of two evils is still evil. Christ NEVER told us to choose evil for any reason.
Porter
February 4th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Sorry, I have to agree that Paul cannot win and a vote for him is a vote for Hillary.
I also agree that Mormonism is a cult, and I dont particulalry want that represented in the White House.
We’re obviously going to have to pray and seek God in a huge way this time around (not that we shouldnt have before). Our choices are slim and scattered.
I’m afraid it may be the lesser of two evils, but Paul isnt going to make it and you will be throwing your vote to the wind.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I wonder what would happen if everybody who said they wouldn’t vote for him because he can’t win, actually voted for him? Perhaps that would change the results some.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Oh yes, let’s not waste our vote.
Let’s see. Christians voted in droves for our current President. The scary alternatives were Gore and then Kerry. Could they have done much worse?
Bush’s record of a disastrous unprovoked war, busting of the budget, bankruptcy of our country as evidenced by the crash of the dollar, the destruction of our civil liberties, trashing of goodwill around the globe — even Hillary would be hard-pressed to have done worse.
It’s time we Christians quit being played for fools. We think we’re so wise choosing between the “viable” candidates anointed as such by the Mainstream Media. Instead, we’re foolish pawns in their little game.
Wake up fellow Christians. Stop being suckers. Do what’s right!
Porter
February 4th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
It’s not that Paul cant’ be elected, it’s that he SHOULDN’T be elected. He’s a whacked out conspiracy theorist and would dump Israel and Taiwan in a heartbeat.
Unfortunately, ALL the Republican candidates are deeply flawed.
I’m beginning to think Anne Coulter may be on to something. Since all of them lean to the left, perhaps the best course of action would be to elect a true liberal, like Obama, let him make a mess of things while we find a TRUE conservative to run in 2012.
“Jimmy Carter was the price we paid to get Ronald Reagan…”
February 4th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Aaron Nolastname:
Lest you be accused of slandering Ron Paul, please quote him to back up your assertions.
Yes, he would dump foreign aid to all countries as being not only unconstitutional, but unproductive. Plus, it makes them dependent on us as do all welfare schemes. If that is offensive to you, then be offended by Paul’s faithfulness to the US Constitution. You are personally free to give your money to any country you like.
Advocating voting for Obama in hopes of a “true conservative” arising is, indeed, a “whacked out” theory. Ron Paul is a true conservative in the mold of Robert Taft and Barry Goldwater (Barry Jr. endorsed him). Funny you don’t seem to recognize a “true conservative” when he is running now. But then again, the disciples didn’t recognize Jesus on the Emmaus road.
George Bush, Bill Clinton, and GW Bush are the price we paid to get Ron Paul to run. Don’t squander it!
Porter
February 4th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Michael,
I appreciate that so many have readers have such a passion to comment on the elections. However, I am disappointed in the fractioning that has resulted within the camp who profess Christ, especially noted leaders or influencers that have endorsed candidates.
Each time I see this occur, I see our chances of getting a solid candidate elected go down in flames or see a democrat get closer to office. The greatest threat to the enemy is our unity as a voter group…but this seems to be eroding. Some focus on foreign policy and others on fiscal. What really matters is a man who can hear God and is electable.
Your endorsement of Paul is disconcerting to me and raises cause for concern. Could you have critiqued all the candidates and let your readers make a decision as an alternative? The role of President is as decision maker and relying upon good counsel, the Holy Spirit and your team. My choice is Huckabee because he has done this in Arkansas.
Looking at the numbers and the devisiveness within mainstream Christianity, Ron Paul has no chance and will be a victory for Dems.
February 4th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
John:
“Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.” Proverbs 27:17.
Don’t be afraid of dissenting opinions among Christians, especially about politics. Pat Robertson did us all a big favor by coming out for Giuliani. Now maybe Christians will stop acting like little birds waiting for their leaders to do their thinking for them and stuff their little mouths and brains with pre-digested opinions.
As one who worked professionally in the 1980’s for Robertson helping get Christians active in politics, I can now appreciate how Dr. Frankenstein must have felt when his creation turned into a monster running amok.
All Christians need is a few key endorsements, and a candidate who is said to “pray” and mouths a few pro life phrases, and they’re ready to cast their vote.
Heaven forbid Christians do any heavy intellectual lifting with actual study of economic and political theory, let alone history. We’d rather have faith in our leaders and those they anoint than develop our own discernment.
This debate should have been going on for months. Actually for years.
Porter
February 4th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Jesus, Help us!!!
February 4th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Yes, Maidena… I agree: Jesus Help us!!!
Jesus, Help Us to not have McCain win the nomination:
McCain on Economics
February 4th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
And why aren’t we discussing Mile Huckabee? There’s no way on the face of this planet I’m voting for Ron Paul or Mitt Romney.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Did you read anything in Ron Paul’s message regarding the sanctity of life -the Right to Life, No cloning or stem cell research. What about preserving traditional marriage? What kind of judges do you think he will appoint especially to the supreme count? Where are the Christian issues he is avocating or will fight to preserve?
In all his speaches I never heard him declare himself to be a Christian. In his message there is no evidence that he is a Christian, espouses Christian virtures or might be considered a child of God - Ep. 5:8 For you were once darkness,but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Where is Ron Paul’s light?
Continually pray for wisdom, guidence and for God’s will to be done in electing the next President of the United States of America. Read 1 Samuel ch. 8 - ch. 13. Pray the one who reigns over you will “continue” to follow the Lord your God.
God Bless America.
February 5th, 2008 at 1:00 am
At last! A Christian organization without their head in the sand!! Praise the Lord! Ron Paul is our only hope in the political arena. Go vote tomorrow at your primary/caucus.
Vote Ron Paul 2008.
Matt
February 5th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Please, before you go calling Ron Paul not a Christian and judging his stance on Israel and saying that we would leave them hanging out to dry… He was interviewed by God’s iPod …actually his wife first, then two of their Granddaughters and then Ron Paul.
http://godsipod.com/podcast_res/israel_anderson/audio/IA_080202.mp3
You will find that he is a Christian Candidate with more integrity than any of the other candidates out there. Oh, and he started out to be a Pastor but decided to be a doctor instead. He might not wear his Christianity on his sleeve, but where does the Constitution say that a Candidate must profess his religious beliefs?
Last I checked, the Constitution is the Law of our Land and our Bible tells us to obey the Law of the Land. Dr. Ron Paul is the ONLY CANDIDATE letting his yes to uphold the Constitution be yes. If you support any other candidate, you are supporting someone who is not upholding their oath of Office - professing believer or not. It is the President’s job to uphold the Constitution and our Bible tells us to obey the law of the land in which we reside! Why don’t you hold the other candidates to that?
February 5th, 2008 at 1:25 am
I have to tell you that I voted last week in Washington State and voted for Ron Paul for President. I pray to God that he will get enough votes to move forward in the election. Thank you for your e-mail.
February 5th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Hello folks,
All that man stuff - please read Kings and Chronicles and check out what man does in his own strength!
And then realise that you need to get closer to Christ i.e. time in prayer.
Ask who the Lord would have you vote for - stay in prayer until you get the answer and the having learned that your Father (in Heaven) knows the future continue to stay there on a daily basis for your life - and your childrens lives - and your Nations life.
One cry in the wilderness in Gods Will is more powerful that the bleating of thousands in the cities.
Down here in New Zealand some of us pray that you will pray as your outcome affects us as well.
Ask God, vote accordingly and have lots of joy in your lives
Ian
February 5th, 2008 at 5:29 am
Vote for a candidate who can win? What a sell out! I’m voting for a man who SHOULD win, and I pledge my vote, even if I have to write it upon my ballot, to the only man who should win. There is only one candidate who CUTS across political and religious lines and he is ron paul. There is, however, a showdown coming. With only four candidates left now, those electorial votes will have to go somewhere, and I believe they will go to the one candidate they should go to. This revolution is going to get a lot hotter before it convinces people that they should vote for the right person and not just to one who can win. If that person can’t win, then we all lose! Big Time!
February 5th, 2008 at 5:43 am
I am appalled and shocked to read some of the posts above. Thomas Scalise is a good representation of the ignorance around Ron Paul. Is he a born again Christian? YES! Read his web site on the issues! Does he carry that around on his sleeve? No! Read why on his web site. Is he for right to life? Are you kidding!? He’s a doctor who has never done an abortion and has delivered over 4,000 babies. Traditional marriage? He’s for states rights NOT FEDERAL powers on that issue. IF the feds can pass that Constitutional measure they can also make queers “suitable” subjects for marriage. THINK about it. In my opinion, marriage is up to the man, woman and God. NOT a state. But give that to the federal government and it won’t be long before homos have the same statutory right. Think about it. Won’t you please go to the ronpaul2008.com website and actually get straight on the issues? “2 Sam 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. KJV
Soon, I think more and more people are going to realize that only Ron Paul cuts across the broad spectrum of politics and Christianity. READ his issues. He is America’s only choice or there will be hell to pay.
February 5th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Dear Michael,
Thank you for that post. Now I am encouraged.
Heather
Ron Paul 2008
February 5th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Just Curious, if the IRS - income taxes, social security taxes, etc. are eliminated, how do we fund Social Security and other Government Services? This sounds a little Protectionist, a turning inward. Sure, we should get our house in order and reign in spending, and require more accountability with our financial aid, but this speach doesn’t tell me how he plans to make that happen. Even if you like and agree with Ron Paul, he will most likely not be nominated.
February 5th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Hey all,
Wow, talk about some energy. I thought I’d weigh in with my part. We all know/see in part, so it’s great everyone’s giving their part, as others have said, so we can sharpen one another. I believe one of the greatest battles we face in the election is of an uniformed or misinformed voting population. Hence, the many misleading ads, opinions by pundits, etc. A reminder to me to seek God and to guard my heart - both in terms of what I let in, and dealing with my motives, emotions, etc.
On Ron Paul: I’ve heard him in the debates several times. I agree with some of what he says, especially on some things related to monetary policy. Issues we face economically are related to our monetary policy. I sat with a banker last week and we talked about the previous Fed chief and some of the decisions made in terms of lowering rates. In some sense, the creation of the tech bubble/bust and housing boom/bust can be directly related to that monetary policy. This Fed chief was very aggressive in measures taken. This was not a Bush or Clinton thing; if I’m not mistaken, this individual was put in place (someone help me) by Reagan or Ford.
I’m trying to make 2 points with this: I believe it’s overly simplistic to blame Bush for our current economic conditions, just as much as it is to give Bill Clinton credit for the ’90’s (with a Republican congress). There are just too many factors that come into play. Secondly, I believe this represents a call/opportunity to be like Joseph. The Fed chief and other economists base their information on past trends and empirical (measurable) data. We as Christians are to do this as well, with all the skill and excellence, and in some cases, will be better at it than non-Christians because of the Holy Spirit within us. But we have an advantage in that we are connected with the Holy Spirit and are aware of the unseen spiritual world. “So we fix our eyes on what is unseen, for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” May we be like Joseph, who with excellence and skill in the natural, combined with spiritual insight, was able to provide God’s solution to an entire land, with uncommon wisdom, which is really God’s wisdom. Empiricism and measurable results are needed and good; what is needed more is the Spirit of wisdom and understanding combined with that. As Michael has written, in some cases you cannot get an audience unless you have skill that command attention (”Do you see a man skilled in his labors? He will not serve before common men, he will serve before kings.” Proverbs).
So it is with this election: we must use our minds and analyze where candidates are coming from, but also get with God and know His mind and heart and what truly is real.
BLESSINGS to you my sisters and brothers in Christ!!!!
With much love,
Dennis
February 5th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I also want to add that I personally like Bill Clinton and have liked him since he ran in ‘92. That being said, I disagree with him on most of his policies and stands. However, I’ve been rebuked in the past about my attitude and heart toward him, complaining about him and not praying for him. I do not want to be the accuser’s mouthpiece against Bill Clinton or any candidate before God. Yes, there are issues to speak out against and these folks have great influence and make decisions that impact many for eternity, and they will be held accountable for those decisions. We can pray for them and God can change their hearts! The heart of the king is in the Lord’s hand, and HE directs it wherever HE will.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 5th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Maureenn - the Social Security will and should be paid by the social security funds that have come out of the citizens paychecks. Has nothing to do with the IRS being eliminated. AFA the other government programs- how do you think we survived before taxes in 1913? It’s all we’ve known for 100 years, so of course we doubt that it could work. It’s all we’ve known and it’s hard to imagine life any other way.
Ron Paul’s economic plan cuts more than $150 BILLION dollars in spending. That is more than the other 3 Republican Candidates’ plans combined - not to mention their plans increase spending, while Ron Paul’s doesn’t. So, if he’s cutting spending that much will we really still need all that taxpaying money? Also, if you have listened to him he has stated that IF the IRS were abolished we would, as a Nation, be at the same place financially as we were 10 years ago. That statement was thought ludicrous by many but researched and found it is true.
AFA not being elected - he has a large number of delegates already that the media inacurrately reports on. It is NOT the popular vote that gets him the GOP nomination, it’s the number of delegates. He has more than 1/3 in Maine… forget what they say about Romney having all of them, they’re lying. He has a large number going to the State Convention in Louisiana and Nevada too, and after tonight he will have even more. Stop listening to the Media, vote what’s RIGHT and TRUE and JUST and if everyone did he would have more votes.
Don’t forget - they said Reagan and Clinton and Carter would never win and look where they got!
February 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
For everyone who believes that Ron Paul “can’t” win:
Ron Paul Beats McCain in Maine, Wins 35% of State Delegates
February 5th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
This is a shocking anouncement, and to me calls into question the wisdom of your organization. I personally could never support Mr. Paul. In my opinion he feeds dispicable conspiracy theories and has no concept of the danger we face as a nation from fundamental muslims.
February 5th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Mark: Can you give us some examples? Thanks!
February 5th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Sure, Here you will find a video of Mr Paul, from the presidential debate in his own words.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/05/16/video-michelle-takes-on-ron-paul-and-the-truthers-on-the-big-story/
February 5th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
At Selling Among Wolves, we appreciate everyone joining in the discussion!
Here’s a quick tip: if you’d like to make a comment, it’s necessary to return to the blog and type your comment into the “Leave a Reply” box.
Hitting the “reply” button on an e-mail and typing a response will not result in your comment appearing.
Again, we want everyone to have the chance to weigh in, which is why I’m explaining this in such detail.
Thanks again for participating in this important discussion!
-The “Geek”
February 5th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Come on America, Some of you have got it - get on your knees and ‘chew the carpet’. stop all this whinging and moaning.
February 5th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Ian, I’m a sure vigourus discussion about a such an important subject can appear sometimes to be whining and moaning especially to someone from NZ not familiar with our political process. In your opinion was Paul whining and moaning when he contended with Peter to his face? There is allot at stake here. I do agree that “chewing the carpet as you say, is good advice.
February 5th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
The question is asked by Brent: “What makes him [Ron Paul] any different from the the Democrat’s cut & run!”
My Friend, contrary to both the Republicans and Democrats, and so called “born again Christians,” Ron Paul wants to obey the Constitution and IS a born again Christian who acts like one. If you think we should be helping our friends around the world, it would behoove you to FIRST obey the Constitution, wouldn’t it? I mean, do you really approve of a man who takes an OATH to uphold the Constitution and then violates it at every turn?
Please allow me to suggest that you’re an unwittingly victim of the liberal media establishment. You know little to nothing about our Constitution.
If you insist on voting for a man who can “win” you will ensure we all lose. Big Time! Please point your browser to http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/ and actually answer your questions with a bit of Constitutional sense.
Dan
February 5th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
I guess it’s time that someone pointed out that McCain isn’t even eligible to be President of the US under our Constitution.
Of course, under regulations other than our Constitution, some would consider him to be eligible.
Yet another example of the unconstitutionality of the current pack of Republicans.
Time for a Revolution!
February 6th, 2008 at 8:12 am
To All Concerned - I’m getting a bit grieved by all the political snobishness and rancor going on in this discussion. Christians come from many denominations, but are for Christ. Politically, we all have different views, one not necessarily better than the other, but we are for America. Stop putting each other down for their views. Continue to pray for God’s person to be elected. Personally, I was rooting for Guliani, but was very disappointed with how the whole thing turned out. Now I am just praying for God to lead me as I cast my final vote. God Bless you all.
February 6th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Maureen:
To say that no political view is better than the others is a mind-boggling statement. It reflects a kind of dualism that separates the spiritual from the non-spiritual. It follows that Christ is not concerned about the political systems that people live in, systems that govern our relationships with others and other nations.
But Christ is Lord of all the world. He cares whether our laws are consistent with or violate His laws. Therefore, we should study politics and economics and make decisions consistent with our beliefs. We should know the political principles (or lack thereof) that guide candidates asking for our votes.
In the 1980’s we worked to awaken that awareness in Christians so they could become an active force for good in the political arena. Unfortunately, many of them became just another easily manipulated special interest group by anyone who learned the buzz phrases and was anointed by our own leaders.
I’m curious how a Christian could be for a pro-abortion, pro-homosexual, war-mongering, serial marriage cross-dresser like Giuliani. How does that square with your Christianity?
And when God “leads” you to cast your final vote, will you just wait for a random name to pop into your head as you enter to voting booth? Or will it be the result of research into what the candidates stand for and how they square with your Christian political principles?
Porter
February 6th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Pharisees! “I’m curious how a Christian could be for a pro-abortion, pro-homosexual, war-mongering, serial marriage cross-dresser like Giuliani. How does that square with your Christianity?”
Who did Jesus die for? Who is to say a man cannot be saved while serving in the White House! Just look at the CEOs from some of the top Industries? Are they all Christians, no, the position goes to the most qualified, and like it or not, some of those folks have better gifts and qualifications to lead than “Christians”. More blessed yes, but not always better qualified. I don’t believe in thowing out the baby with the bath water.
February 6th, 2008 at 11:02 am
I’m new to this site and what jumps out at me is how intolerant y’all are of any other view but your own. Why would anyone else WANT to vote for Ron Paul or, for that matter, accept Jesus as their savior? There’s no love or room for disagreement. I’m 56 and can’t ever remember hearing about one piece of legislation, either positive or negative, associated with Mr. Paul. And what I have seen during this campaign hasn’t impressed me. He’s whiny; he can’t say anything positive; he has no vision for how to make this country better (that he articulates with hope); the joy of the Lord isn’t on his face (if he IS a Christian); and, I’m sorry, regardless of whether or not we should have gone into Iraq, cutting and running isn’t a Godly solution. And his supporters are grumpy and combative, too. God’s kindness leads others to repentance, not a 2×4.
February 6th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Ladies:
Fear not, a passionate debate is a sign of life! This discusion for the most part actually has been very civil. Good men often disagree and contend for even for the faith. Remeber the “council at Jeruselem” in the book of Acts? Here is a thought…..perhaps the Lord has spread our passions so diversely among the body of Christ so that America will get a president that is indeed a true reflection of our Nation?
February 6th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Maureen,
I appreciate your passion and zeal. You’re making a great point that leadership is a critical quality, although perhaps the name calling might be a little beneath us. Everything Porter said about Giuliani is, unfortunately, true, despite how he has been portrayed in the mainstream media.
Your specific points, however, might be best applied to Ron Paul, who has demonstrated excellent leadership in Congress in his 10 terms. In fact, Congressional Quarterly named him one of the 50 most effective members of Congress (which looked at both Senators and members of the House).
Christian Business Daily already pointed out other aspects of his leadership, much of which could be summed up by thinking about this scripture:
“A good man leaves an inheritiance to his children’s children….” (Proverbs 13:22a)
Very few of our elected officials have done any real work to try to leave an inheritance other than insurmountable debt to our children and their children. Lord knows all of the other candidates still in the running this year will, by all appearances (and factoring in their track records), only plan to worsten this tragic situation.
February 6th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
“Lord knows all of the other candidates still in the running this year will, by all appearances (and factoring in their track records), only plan to worsten this tragic situation.”
I choose to speak life over our candidates and our country.
February 6th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
FYI people, Giuliani is not running.
February 6th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Kern: thanks for stating the obvious. If you follow the conversation back a little ways, you’ll find that Maureen brought that up earlier. When she did, it sparked some additional discussion.
Maureen: it’s a great idea to speak life over the candidates and the country. It’s an even better idea for us to take action and try to create the conditions that will bring life to it — instead of the slavery that we’re already in — while we’re speaking.
And, for the record, I noticed after posting that I had misspelled the word, “worsen.” Just wanted to set that straight.
February 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Not everyone seems to quite understand yet (despite my previous comment) that to leave a comment you need to come back to today’s post in your web browser and type it into the “Leave a Reply” box.
Here’s one such person’s comment. (Shannon, I didn’t want your thoughts to not be included, so I took the liberty of putting them in as a comment for you.)
February 6th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Shannon,
You said:
You might want to reread the reasons we stated for endorsing Dr. Paul. Economics play a critical part in our endorsement since, as Winston already noted, we are clearly accountable for the sort of inheritance that we leave to the next generation.
We also clearly pointed out, however, the ethics and integrity that Congressman Paul has demonstrated while serving in Congress. We also noted his strong Pro-Life position, and pointed to his record of working to protect freedoms and promote policies that are, “…most closely aligned with what we believe to be the Biblical positions.”
You and Claudia would do well to research legislation sponsored by Dr. Paul. It goes without saying that the mainstream media will not show it to you themselves. Among the numerous pieces of legislation he has introduced, you will find bills related to the sanctity of life and numerous efforts to counteract the unethical behavior of many of his peers.
We do call ourselves Christians. Your response, which was to attack the validity of our Christian faith when we presented a position that challenged your thinking, represents exactly the brand of ignorant behavior within Christian circles that we hope to eradicate. My use of the term “ignorant” is not intended as a personal affront — ignorance can be cured through education, which is central to the reason that our website exists. Educating the Body was intended (in this instance) to counter the misinformation and sleepy apathy created by our addiction to the entertainment-oriented “news” products served up by Fox News, CNN and the like.
Finally, Shannon, we appreciate your reference to the words of Jesus, “What does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world, yet lose his very soul?”. We believe that the soul of our nation has been lost — or will be lost if we do nothing — due to the Church abdicating its influential role in society and in culture. We are asking questions like:
What does it profit a nation if the Christians fail to lead?
What does it profit the Body of Christ to buy into the lie of pious poverty while ungodly persons own and control the levers that move an entire culture?
If the ‘borrower is servant to the lender’ then to whom is our nation enslaved — both as individual families and corporately as a nation?
These are the types of questions that drive us to do what we do. We hope to issue the challenge to you and others like you to ask yourselves the same types of questions.
Then, as we “chew the carpet,” (as our friend from New Zealand urged us to do in his comment) we can hopefully hear from Heaven about what must be done.
There remains no doubt, though: something must be done.
February 6th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
That is a compelling argument indeed! I actually believe he is correct in his debate description of our economic situation. But what about his foreign policy statements? And his close association with Dennis Kucinich and the so called 9/11 truthers? I understand we are in a sad state of affairs as far as finances, but what are we to do? forget the murderers that are trying to break into our home as we ballance our checkbook? Pretending we don’t have an enemy will not fix our problem.
February 6th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Mark:
Ron Paul is for a strong national DEFENSE. But he is against the notion of US Imperialism or the arrogance that we should try to force our way of life on others.
He was for going after Bin Laden from the beginning, in a Constitutional way. He was totally against the unnecessary invasion of Iraq which was sold on lies and deceptions. It has accelerated the bankruptcy of America, tarnished our reputation in the world, resulted in 3,000 US deaths, 30,000+ maimings, and oh, yes, over 1,000,000 innocent Iraqi lives. But maybe Christians should be unconcerned about the killing of innocents. Nice Christian witness.
Porter
February 6th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
For those who believe Demos are going to end Iraq occupation, think again they keep funding the mistake.
Second, for Christians who do support Iraq occupation, two questions.
How do we afford it when we have to borrow from places like China? Is it OK to steal from our grandchildren to pay for gov waste now?
Why are we in Iraq instead of protecting our own borders, and were is Osama in Iraq?
Why do we fund and supply weapons to places like Saudi, Palestine, Pakistan, etc… in our foreign policies?
February 6th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Yes, and what does it profit a country whose man has sworn to uphold the Consitution goes and does contrariwise. What Christian would vote for that guy?
Every last person running is a criminal and should be hung for treason — if we were to follow the Constitution rightly. But Ron Paul has NOT violated his oath, and he’s got TEN (COUNT’EM), TEN congressional terms to prove it. A person’s actual track record used to amount to something. Today’s platitudes and misconfiguration of scripture is selling our country down the drain which originally gave us the freedom of religion.
I too must say that for ignorance there is a cure, but stupidity is a terminal condition. Most of the poeple in our country aren’t interested in eating right and doing the proper exercise, and I can tell you something else. Our religion is just as trashed.
A wise man would never have to think twice who to vote for seeing there is actually only ONE MAN running who can prove what he’s been talking about who has never violated his oath to the people.
Again, turn your browser to check out the real story: www.ronpaul2008.com/issues
February 6th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Brothers and sisters in Christ.
I’m really dissapointed in those of you who have made disparaging remarks about Dr. Paul here. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
You parrot the words of those who denounce Dr. Paul, the things that you hear on TV. You clearly have not taken the time to seek the truth, to accept the truth, to know the truth. How sad. Ask yourself…how Christ-like is that?
Dr. Paul is a Christian, and unlike any of his peers, he actually does his best to walk the Christian walk. His Congressional voting record is a testament to his integrity, his personal life his clear testimony as a brother in Christ. He is an honest man amongst the scoundrels. Don’t believe me though. Believe his record. Look it all up.
I have to ask you this…What did the world think of Jesus during his time? What did the respected elders, the government, the establishment of the day have to say about him?
And here you are, calling yourselves Christian. Yet you refuse to listen to the message from the man himself, you neglect to take the time to read, research, and evaluate. You mimic the press, the current administration, the world.
You want to be of the world, and like the world? You go ahead. I’ll take a different path. I’ll take the path of resistance He promised me I would when I swore my life to Him. That’s what a Christian must do.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Lord I pray you will open the eyes of the hearts of those who can’t see your hand on Ron Paul, and on those who can’t seem to understand/relate to his wisdom about why America is falling and falling fast, or take it as a negative. Help them to see this is not about positive outlooks or feeling good.
Paul is like a prophet where his own home town ignored him, calling out with passion, trying to awaken his countrymen to why America needs to repent of it’s ways.
2 Cor. 7:14 comes to mind.
Lord also lead them to understand what is really going on in American foreign policy before they vote.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Well?, Why am I not suprised that the Ron Paul fan club will not give an answer to a legitimate question about his position on foriegn policy. But instead resort to insults and demogogy. To always attack the person asking the question is a play from the Clinton handbook. And Porter your numbers look like they came from Michael Moore.
February 6th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Ron Paul has received the Most Contributions than any other candidate, Republican or Democrat…. is there something they know that we don’t?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiFsxp5qOpM
February 6th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Well Said, JohnQ! Very well said.
The man who can think for himself IS the fox.
It would be amusing, if it were not so sad, to hear the parotted main stream media spouted like gospel. And some say it doesn’t pay to advertise. I am a Christian worker in India, love the Lord and my own country with all my heart. And I’ve been praying for Ron Paul to run for president since 1991. I pray God is also going to answer my prayers for America that we will have one last chance to save our liberties. That will NOT happen with any other candidate than Ron Paul. He’s got a record to prove it and so do his contestants. They ought to be hung.
www.ronpaul2008.com/issues
Dan
February 6th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
To Mark:
I got a couple of foreign policy questions for you.
Why do we send money and weapons to Israel’s enemies?
Why does our foreign policies create Saddams and Bin Laden’s?
Why do we not protect our own borders?
February 6th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Mark:
What question did I leave unanswered about Ron Paul and national defense? Please be specific. First, check the web site mentioned above.
As for Iraqi deaths, Lancet estimated over 650,000 in 2006. The British polling agency, ORB, estimated over 1 million last September. http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78
Another polling firm in Britain released the same number just a week or two ago.
The US government doesn’t think it is necessary to try to keep a count.
Would you find half the number of innocent deaths, say 500,000 acceptable? We’ve destroyed the infrastructure of that suffering and created untold misery.
What number of innocent deaths is acceptable to you and your Christian faith in an invasion that was unprovoked and clearly based on lies?
Porter
February 6th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Ron Paul is not a “conspiracy theorist”. He was asked in one of the debates if he would denounce his supporters that believe that 911 was perpetrated by our own government. He said he wouldn’t denounce any support, and that he can’t and won’t tell people what they should think about anything. But he did say that HE doesn’t believe the government was behind 911, and that’s all that matters.
The reason he gets labled as a “kook” or a “fringe” candidate, and a conspiracy theorist, is because he is for abolishing the Federal Reserve system and the IRS.
The Federal Reserve system IS a “conspiracy”, and that’s no “theory”. The Constitution give CONGRESS the power to issue and print currency. The Federal Reserve is not a part of Congress, it is NOT a federal entity, it has nothing to do with our governement, it’s never audited by Congress, and it has no reserves.
The fed is a PRIVATELY-OWNED bank, that issues our money and LOANS it to our government WITH INTEREST. The deficit, the national debt, whatever you wanna call it… well, we wouldn’t have one if it weren’t for the Fed. We also wouldn’t have had the Great Depression, the current recession, the economic problems of the 70’s, the housing bubble of today, etc., etc. if it weren’t for the Fed.
How many times in the last decade have you heard this… “The Fed lowered rates again today.”? Thats because the Fed is a “price-fixer”. They have kept interest rates artificially low for so long, that they’ve caused the dollar to crash like it has… gold to rise in value like it has… and they’ve caused and perpetuated and the housing bubble. Ron Paul, like most free market economist, believe that THE MARKET itself should determine interest rates… not economic planners in charge of the Fed. We wouldn’t have inflation at all if it weren’t for the fed printing money out of thin air to cover the short-falls of government. Gold is still worth the same amount as it was 5000 years ago. That’s why the founders said “only gold and silver” should be used as money. We got rid of the gold standard completely in 1971 under Nixon.
The Federal Reserve is NOT a part of our government and never has been. It is owned by a group of wealthy international bankers that have no vested interest in our country. These same people are all members of the Council on Foreign Relations and they have an agenda. Their agenda IS one-world government. I know, I know… “here he goes with the conspiracy crap”. Do some research. Go to the CFR’s own website www.cfr.org and type in the search bar “North American Union” and you’ll find that the CFR supports a “globalist” ideal for our nation, with no borders, and a shared currency between the U.S., Canada and the UK.
Straight from the horses mouth… not from mine.
David Rockefeller, who’s grandfather Nelson Rockefeller help to found the Federal Reserve (and who owns Chase bank, one of the central banks involved in the Federal Reserve system) said this in his own memoirs…
“For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as “internationalists” and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure—-one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
Ever wonder why we support Isreal and yet we send 3 times as much money to the Arab nations? I read in one of Ron Pauls speeches to Congress in 1984 that at that time there were somewhere around 22 wars going on around the globe, and that we were somehow involved in funding all of them. The chilling part is that we were funding BOTH SIDES of most of them. Just like we funded Sadaam at one time… and Osama Bin Laden another. The CFR and the Fed are behind all of this.
People… wake up. This is not the US of A we thought it was. It’s corrupt all the way through. These people don’t meet in dark, smokey rooms to decide how to enslave the American people. It’s not a conspiracy like that. They are all super-wealthy men and corporations, and a one-world government… or at the least, a globalist agenda… benefits all of them. That’s why they push for these ideas. (At the expense of the middle class in America.)
By the way, Romney, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Giuliani, McCain… these are all members of the CFR. In fact, out of 500 top officials in our government over the last 100 years, over half have been members of the CFR. Why do you think the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer, our freedoms keep getting taken away, wars never end (if they do we have to start another one), and the value of the dollar keeps dropping? Inflation and war is another form of tax on the middle class. The “silent” tax.
Read this speech from Ron Paul to Congress and you’ll never vote for anyone else. He is the sole voice of reason and integrity in Washington…
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul433.html
Most Americans are asleep.
WAKE UP!!!
WAKE UP!!!
February 6th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Davy, I don’t know the answer to those questions. But I’m not running for President either. Guy’s you can make all the personal attacks you would like, unfortunatly it does not help your cause, it just reflects poorly on your argument when you resort to doing that rather than dealing with the issues we are facing. I have yet to call into question anyone’s Christianity. Including Mr. Paul’s. It was Mr. Paul in the debate that implied that we brought 9/11 on ourselves and thinks that Iran is not a problem, we just need to leave them alone. I’m not quoting a news agency or someones talking points I’m quoting Mr. Paul. It’s O.K. if you disagree with me when I say that scares me to death! But your not helping your cause to be condecending and evasive.
February 6th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Bill, you were typing while I was, Gosh you were typing when Jesus was a baby. Brother you have too much time on your hands. God Bless you guys this is where I give up.
February 6th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
One last thing, I guess we never were ever on the moon either?
February 6th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Mark:
I believe YOU are the one making statements that reflect poorly on YOU. We’ve done our best to lay out facts and ask you for clarification.
In the debate Dr. Paul did point out that Bin Laden, himself, issued his fatwa against the US because we were meddling so much in the Middle East. He didn’t excuse 9-11, but he pointed out their motivation. Bush and his NeoCon handlers want us to think that we were attacked for our western ways and MTV, but it was for our imperialistic ways in the Middle East for most of the 20th, and all of the 21st century so far.
With no credible arguments left, and apparently no desire to really engage in dialogue, I can understand why you are retreating from the field of discussion.
A word of advice: Don’t enter a gunfight with a knife, especially a rubber one!
Porter
February 6th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
I figured you didn’t know about USforeign policy, or you would support Paul as you seem to be a good person.
Buy Ron Paul’s book. “A foreign policy of Freedom, Peace, Commerce, and Honest Friendship.”
You’ll understand more than you do, instead of a distorted soundbyte from a debate.
Just click on my name for link
February 6th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
OK Porter - Is this what it’s all about, being right? Bush is a Christian, I believe he acted in good faith. If he could take back every death, including those who died on 911 he would. Who on this earth is the perfect leader? Stop being a hater. Your arugument hands the radical Islamic Terrorists just the ammo they need to keep on killing.
February 6th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Mark, did you know that in Iraq now that Saddam is gone, Iraqi Christians are persecuted more than when they lived under Saddam regime. Hard to believe but true.
The Sunni’s and Shites don’t like Christians, and with the pending choas of no law or order there, they persecute Christians worse now.
Please read Paul’s book, don’t remain in the dark, just cause your not running for President.
God wants you to think and learn for yourself. He created you that way.
February 6th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Maureen asked
“If we eliminate income tax and IRS how would we pay for Social Security?”
Social Security Tax is for Social Security.
Income Tax only goes to pay interest on the 9 trillion national debt (1 billion in growing interest daily.)
Next question I asked? Who is the income tax going to if it is only paying interest on our debt? Who do we owe debt to?
Federal Reserve (Private Bankers ) who print money (counterfeiting) and charge interest on that printed paper.
Wake up People!
February 6th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Maureen:
Actually, its all about Truth. Jesus is kind of quirky about it. He even says that it “will set you free.” He had great condemnation for liars, and those who would deceive the elect.
Whether Bush is a Christian or not, only God knows. But if you still believe he acted in good faith, ie, he didn’t know about the countless lies and distortions used 18 months by him and his administration leading up to the invasion of Iraq, then you haven’t been paying attention to all the revelations since then.
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, et al. kept saying that Saddam was tied in with 9-11 so much that over half the country believe it to this day! You might still be one of those.
My argument only elucidates the truth. The “terrorists” already know the truth. So does most of the world. You appear to still be part of the deceived. Do your research. Blind faith in a leader — other than Christ — is not noble, nor biblical.
Discover the Truth, and it will set you free.
Porter
February 6th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Maureen
Listen to how Rod Parsley a pastor in OHIO explains debt and federal reserve in this video link.
http://screamfreedom.blogspot.com/2007/12/conquering-spirit-of-debt.html
February 6th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Our arguments do not embolden the terrorists. And even if they did, we supposedly live in a FREE country. I can say whatever I want. If we decide to silence dissenting voices in this country in the name of security, then we are not free.
Ben Franklin said, “Any society that gives up it’s liberty in the name of security, deserves neither… and will lose both.”
Our occupation of their lands, our bases built on their holy grounds, our bombing innocent women and children… that’s what emboldens the terrorists. That is what gives them the means to recruit more people into their terrorist camps. That’s the reason Bin Laden gave for flying planes into our buildings. He said nothing about us being prosperous and free… he said they did it because of our occupations of middle easterrn countries… particularly our military bases built in Saudi Arabia. Did you notice that almost all of the 19 highjackers were Saudi’s???
Not Iraqis. Not Iranians. Not Afghanis. Saudi’s.
I used to think just like some of you on this site. I voted for Bush both times. I had no clue… I was just listening to republican rhetoric. Do you know why things never change in this country? Because the republicans and the democrats are pretty much the same. Rich elites. Corporatists. Globalists.
Why do they scare us continously about terrorists… and they leave the border WIDE OPEN. They’ve done NOTHING to stop people from coming into this country illegally. Bush’s immigration bill included amnesty for illegals. Why? They make him more money.
I’m not trying to insult anyone’s intelligence. I’m not putting forth personal attacks here. I used to be blinded myself. I used to watch nothing but Fox News. Did you know that Rupert Murdock is also a member of the CFR? And so are most of the owners of all the major media outlets. War, global economies… it all benefits them.
February 6th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Huckabee said he wants to change the U.S. Constitution to reflect “God’s Word”. I’m a Christian myself, but I do NOT want to live in a theocracy. There is a reason why the all the founding U.S. documents talk about our nation being founded “under God”… EXCEPT THE CONSTITUTION. The constitution never says the word, “God”. That’s because it is our basis for government and we have separation of church and state. We are still primarily a Christian nation, but the Constitution is very specific about religion…
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
So… if you want the 10 Commandments in the courthouse, and you’re the acting judge… then go ahead. And Congress can’t do anything to stop it. All the laws against prayer in schools… unconstitutional. A law requiring prayer in school? Unconstitutional. It says it pretty plainly… NO LAW shall be passed regarding religion.
February 6th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I could go on and on. And usually do.
Are any of you really worried about terrorists?
Do you know anyone who has been killed by terrorists?
Do you know anyone who has died in a car accident?
Now, if I lived in a high-rise building in NYC… I might be SLIGHTLY concerned about terrorism. But I don’t. And I don’t worry about it at all.
I DO worry about our spending $1 trillion dollars a year of OUR MONEY on this agenda. On war. On needless, un-Christianlike war.
3000 people died on 911. More than that many soldiers have died since then in Iraq.
Sadaam killed around 300,000 Iraqi’s during his time in power… over decades. We’ve killed around 300,000 innocent Iraqi’s ourselves… in less than a decade.
We’re builing bases the size of the Vatican in Iraq. 7 new airforce bases. And yet, we’re hurting economically… we’re in a recession.
Did you know that now that all our manufacturing jobs have gone overseas, 83% of our manufacturing left in the U.S. is for the military. In other words, if we don’t continue to support the “military-industrial complex”, our economy will go down the tubes faster than it already is.
Have you noticed that since the Federal Reserve was fouded in 1913, that we’ve been at war with someone ever since?
February 6th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
If they don’t keep us scare of terrorists… we won’t continue to back the war… and they won’t keep making GOBS of money.
And the war in Iraq? Planned before 911. Has nothing to do with terrorism. No wmds either.
Iraq… and Iran (they’re next)… are 2 of the 3 nations in the world that refuse to denominate their oil in dollars. That’s why we’re there.
Period.
I’m done. Bye.
Hey… what happened to all the rebuttals?? Did the non-Paul supporters run out of things to say?
February 6th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
I have a correction so I’m reposting.
Ron Paul received more contributions from the MILITARY than any other candidate, Republican or Democrat…. is there something they know that we don’t?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiFsxp5qOpM
February 6th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Hey Bill http://www.sellingamongwolves.com/blog/2008/02/04/christianbusinessdailycom-endorses-ron-paul-for-president/#comment-17740
THANKS for that. Now if we can just get a few people on this llist to really check it out, we’ll change a few things in our country. However, do not dispair. I just found out that every one of my family voted for Ron Paul. You would never understand how mind blowing that is until you learn that my ex-wife and her family is amongst them and she KNEW that was my position from many, many years ago. I have been so badly denounced by EVERY member of my family that to see them ALL vindicate me today is a blessing. So, I’m telling you … IF MY FAMILY can get it straight after years of blindness, then there is hope for absolutely everyone else. Now if only they would all become Christians!
February 6th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Hi Mark,
You said, “Mark Donovan c-us Says:
February 6th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Well?, Why am I not suprised that the Ron Paul fan club will not give an answer to a legitimate question about his position on foriegn policy.”
Please simply point your browser to
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/?tag=Foreign%20Policy
IF you can find fault with something there, then bring it back to the table. However, the problem I see with every last one of you who won’t support Ron Paul is that you’ve swallowed the main media message hook, line, sinker, rod, reel, boat and oars. Get the message straight from the horse’s mouth above and SEE if you can find any fault with it. Prove me wrong, if not.
February 7th, 2008 at 6:13 am
I’m so glad to see so many positive responses to my post!
Mark, to be specific about Dr. Paul’s position on foreign policy, is there or are there specific issues that concern you?
I’ll keep this simple. Please read up on everything I say and check it for yourself.
We’ve meddled in the affairs of the countries of the Middle East thru the CIA for quite a while. Have a look at what happened in Iran in the late 40’s and early 50’s for starters. Understand what we did…who we used, what happened to them, and how they gained a following. Most importantly, learn WHY we did it. Then realize…
OPEC countries sell oil in US Dollars, and have for quite some time. When a country wants to sell oil in any other currency, they’re a threat. (Iraq, Venezuela, and Iran). We’ve destroyed Iraq…not just the country, but the people. Name ONE Iraqi terrorist that was responsible for Sept 11. 2001. ONE. We tried to oust & kill democratically elected President Hugo Chavez of Venezuala. And if you’re a fan of the mainstream media, you know the war drums are pounding in an attempt to rally support for attacking Iran. Incidentally, 4 major sub-sea communications cables just HAPPENED to ‘accidentally’ be cut the week they were to start selling oil in other currencies.
Anyway, here we are, America, imposing our will on people around the globe to protect the ‘interests’ of our empire. Interests like oil. We take what we what from whom we want. We make compliant people in those countries incredibly wealthy. We eliminate those who do not cooperate.
And you believe that we have a war on terror because the radical Islamists hate our freedoms? I won’t say I blame you, because that’s what our authorities tell you on TV. I’ll just ask you to read, learn, and realize that most of our politicians aren’t Christian. Most of them have no problem with whatever means is needed to achieve the ends they seek.
Which brings me back to you, disparaging the only man who wants to put an end to it. When we leave the Middle East alltogether and establish normal diplomatic & trading relations with those countries it will be a START towards the future that we should all be striving to see.
I’ll leave you with this thought. How did Jesus handle Judas? Could he have not asked Peter to take care of him before the betrayal? He KNEW with absolute certainty what path lie ahead, what events would transpire. He KNEW, absolutely, positively, 100% what was going to happen. And yet, He choose the path of peace.
We don’t have the benefit of knowing what is in the hearts of other men/women. Peace will never happen if we don’t let it, and as long as we’re invaders in their homeland, we’ll never conquer their hearts & minds for Him. Because in the end, isn’t that the only thing that matters?
February 7th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Very nice Porter…..
Porter quote:
“A word of advice: Don’t enter a gunfight with a knife, especially a rubber one!”
Gods word:
“Thinking themselves wise they became fools”
God’s word tells us that these people will be given over to a strong delusion. You feel that this describes me; I in turn feel that this describes you and the Ron Paul Fan club. The vitriol that you and your cohorts spew reveals the spirit in which you are filled. Below is a quote from the Ron Paul web-site.
Ron Paul:
“As I have been saying all along, Iran indeed poses no quantifiable imminent nuclear threat to us or her neighbors. (This proves this man is under a strong delusion) It is unthinkable that despite lack of any evidence of a threat, (Denial of evidence does not equate to a lack of evidence) some are still charging headstrong into yet another war (Who is he talking about? I haven’t heard anyone doing this?) in the Middle East when what we ought to be doing is coming home from Iraq,(Abandon our allies? That really speaks well for his fair dealing comments)
Perhaps the Ron Paul supporters should invest a portion of the time they spend reading all the conspiracy theories and read Gods word.
February 7th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Mark Donavan,
Please put some meat on the bones of your charges that there are nukes in Iran threatening world peace, BUT more than that, please provide the CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to do so. If you can’t read the Constitution and obey it as the Supreme Law of the Land, and see truth, how would you understand the scriptures? Hmm?
By the way, are you still convinced there are weapons of mass desctruction in Iraq? You could prove that one too while you’re at it.
I honestly think that you’re just sore (for some reason) that your own opinion has been found so weak. That’s the sign of a weak personal constitution that you cannot admit when you’re wrong. I would like to suggest Proverbs 8 (below) for a bit of wisdom and understanding. And in saying this I AM your friend.
Proverbs 8
Wisdom’s Call
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death.”
Footnotes:
1. Proverbs 8:16 Many Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint; most Hebrew manuscripts and nobles-all righteous rulers
2. Proverbs 8:22 Or way ; or dominion
3. Proverbs 8:22 Or The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work ; or The LORD brought me forth at the beginning of his work
4. Proverbs 8:23 Or fashioned
CAN YOU VOTE CONSCIENTIOUSLY FOR A PERSON WHO HAS VIOLATED THEIR OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND CALL OTHERS FOOLS?
February 7th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Mark,
Just study our foreign policy in America and you’ll understand. Turn off the tabloid media, and educate yourself.
Many here have given you plenty of resources but it still sounds as if you still haven’t educated yourself about it.
Your trying to defend your positions but yet you have no resources to back it up.
Where have you been Mark?
You said about Paul’s statements on Iran… (”Who is he talking about? I haven’t heard anyone doing this?”) referring to Paul’s reference to preemptive war with Iran by others.
Mark did you watch any of the Repub Debates? Plenty of candidates who would attack Iran in a NY second. Just Google “Preemptive War with Iran”.
This subject has been discussed at length over the past 3 months many, many times.
you say… Paul is delusional about Iran threat.
Read these articles…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7125701.stm
or
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11616.htm
or
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf
February 7th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Are you denying the intelligence reports that say that Iran had halted their nuclear weapons program in 2003….?
Yet our President continues to tout that Iran is still a nuclear threat, and he’s still coming up with “reasons” to keep Iran as a “threat” …. He even disagreed with the intelligence report!
I guess he’s more reliable than our intelligence agencies….
February 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/06/AR2008020604763_pf.html
The seizure of electronics at U.S. borders has prompted protests from
travelers who say they now weigh the risk of traveling with sensitive
or personal information on their laptops, cameras or cellphones. In
some cases, companies have altered their policies to require employees
to safeguard corporate secrets by clearing laptop hard drives before
international travel.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Dan:
I never said that Iran had a nuke, You are indeed delusional also if you think that they are not pursuing one, and even more so if you think they would not use it.
Davy:
You accuse me of quoting the tabloid media and then post the BBC as credible? Give me a break. I guess you will quote Michael Moore next?
Michelle:
Doing a little cherry picking are we? Here is the 2007 National Intellegence Estimate actual document anyone can read it. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf
“NIE Assess with moderate confidence
Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons
program as of mid-2007, but we do not know
whether it currently intends to develop nuclear
weapons. Judge with high confidence that the halt
was directed primarily in response to increasing
international scrutiny and pressure resulting from
exposure of Iran’s previously undeclared nuclear
work. (Not hiding our heads in the sand as Mr. Paul wishes)Assess with moderate-to-high confidence
that Tehran at a minimum is keeping open the
option to develop nuclear weapons.”
February 7th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Mark, I didn’t post anything from the BBC, but it IT goes against your own private theory, you should at least pay some attention. However, I did notice that you simply side stepped my question about concientiously voting for people who have a record of violating their oath while Ron Paul has a recored of having kept his. What has been said before about believing lies still applies. 2Th 29The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I think it is way too simplistic of a belief that the reason we have Islamic terrorists wanting to attack us is a result of our being in the mid-East, EXCEPT for the fact that we support Israel. And we do not occupy their country. This is the age-old battle going back to Old Testament times played out today. I belive the prince of Persia is wanting to abort God’s final plan by trying to take out Israel. If he takes out us and our support of them, Israel might be an easier target. The good news is that God WILL protect them even if we don’t. Still, the Bible is clear that whoever blesses Israel will be blessed by God.
As for the oil issue, do you suppose those countries that supply oil would rather give all of that money back and not have what they have today? That, too, is a notion that is hard to grasp. And for the fact the we support Israel who is the sworn enemy of Islam and most, if not all Arab nations, how does that square with what some have written? That if we get out of middle east, the problem will go away? That is pure and utter nonsense. If we did not support Israel, the problem MAY go away, but since we have already supported them, it really will not. And again, backing away from our support is the cut and run strategy. As far as leaving Iraq, yeah, that’s a good idea - NOT! Talk about not loving your neighbor!
Recently on 60 Minutes a guy who befriended Saddam while in prison indicated that Saddam did not have WMD’s but wanted it to appear that he did. He also wanted to resume production of them, and he was paying people $30K each to go be suicide bombers in Israel. People, we need to get real.
I’ve said before I like some of Ron Paul’s thoughts on monetary policy but this guy clearly appears to be out of his league in foreign policy. I do ardently believe in following the Constitution; at the same time, we cannot become protectionistic. That inevitably would lead to closed markets, and could make the furtherance of the gospel more difficult. I did not say it could not be furthered or that it was impossible, but it would make it more difficult.
As for initimation that the undersea cable might have been cut by the CIA - that’s without basis in fact. I could come up with any sort of theory (I won’t say conspiracy) about any number of issues. Without a basis in fact, though, it’s just an opinion.
Personally, I will probably not vote for John McCain if he wins and I will certainly not vote for Clinton or Obama. They all, some more than others, are not pro-life. McCain has supported embryonic stem cell research, Clinton and Obama are off the charts abortion supporters. I don’t know if anyone was aware of this but Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a eugenic, which I believe means she wanted a pure race. She was ardently anti-African-American. A much greater proportion of abortions occur within the African-American community than in any other, unfortunately due to her influence.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I also wanted to mention that the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, long reputed to be the best intelligence agency in the world, recently stated that they believe that Iran could have nuclear capabilities in 3 years.
Dennis
February 7th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Mark, I see that the National Intellegence Estimate is actually pleading Dr. Ron Paul’s case — not yours. I just read it with particular notice about “moderate confidence that Tehran has NOT restarted it’s nuclear weapons program.” But Scott Ritter on YouTube has a few things to say about this too. Ron Paul spells out the only reason. You should pay a little respect and attention, don’t you think?
See http://youtube.com/watch?v=XctgkYj5aVk
Scott Ritter, a former UNSCOM weapons inspector, was the single individual who, before the war, stuck his neck out stated that Iraq did NOT possess WMD. He was all over national TV with this message but was dismissed as heretic.
Ahmadinejad never stated he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. An intentional mistranslation by the warmongering corporate media.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Dennis Preston, you said, Ron Paul “clearly appears to be out of his league in foreign policy.”
Kindly give us more than smoke and mirrors. Like book, chapter and verse statements that Ron Paul has made which make him what he appears to you to be.
Thanks, Dan
February 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Dennis, please also have a look at http://youtube.com/watch?v=XctgkYj5aVk at roughly 1:40, etc.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
And with Mitt Romney out of it, Ron’s going to get some of those electorial votes too.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Thanks Dennis I echo your sentiments. Dan your name is not Dave, re-read my post, here is his reference, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7125701.stm
It’s the BBC, I didn’t sidestep anything, your implication that I am being evasive is incorrect, I just failed to answer so I will here. I have at many times voted for many leaders that have violated oaths, that is because I have never been given the option of voting for a perfect man, as all have sinned and come short of God’s Glory. I take voting very seriously and am never uninformed, however I am never perfectly informed either. It is your assertion that Mr. Pauls has been perfect in his upholding of our nations constitution, this may be a fact. But I still feel as I have said and demonstrated all along he is delusional when it comes to foriegn policy.
February 7th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
dantrenner,
I believe Paul stated that we should #1 pull out of Iraq; #2 the reason we are being attacked is because we are occupying other countries - which countries by the way?
I stated above that our support of Israel is the likely reason we are being attacked. And to pull out of Iraq would be to turn our back on people over there, the majority of whom are happy that we are there.
Please re-read my comments, I believe I further stated Paul’s positions, some of his thoughts, and why they are not in line with fact.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 7th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Dennis if America is so blessed for supporting Israel (Reality UN and US keep her from protecting herself) and let us not forget her enemies as well, then why does it take two to three jobs now to support a family.
Why is America a debtor nation rather than a lendor nation?
9 trillion in debt, dollar becoming worthless, infantcide on demand, and were blessed?
February 7th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Dan Quote: “Ahmadinejad never stated he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. An intentional mistranslation by the warmongering corporate media.”
So every news agency that carried the video was a willing participant along with every Iranian American that heard what he said and never stood up and sai wait a min? You have lost your mind!
February 7th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Hi Dennis,
Please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases
There is a colored map showing the ARAB states (read Muslim) where we have our military presence. Imagine now, if you will, that Cuba, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and Northern South America had KNOWN Al Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden bases there. Do you suppose we would be just a little irate? To those people they call their young suicides “freedom fighters.” Ahem!
February 7th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
dantrenner,
Is Scott Ritter more informed then the Mossad? I would guess not.
The things I mentioned about Ron Paul are not smoke and mirrors. These are things he has said plainly which to me do not have any basis in fact, and are, in fact, quite contrary to what the reality is.
One of the key issues of leadership is having clarity of vision, clarity to see and understand what the problems are, what root issues are, and then how to address them. I think Paul is a constitutionalist in that he would apply the constitution, but I think his conclusions are wrong. Faulty conclusion would lead to faulty application. If a doctor were to draw a conclusion that you had malaria and gave you the proper drugs for that, yet your problem was not malaria but something else, such that the drugs you were given for malaria would actually make you sicker, that doctor would be charged with malpractice.
Now I clearly do not have access to the information he has. I do not believe everything I read. At the same time, there is truth is what is written in the media. One has to sift through the rhetoric, understand that what is often portrayed as fact is opinion, and that opinions of others are just that, opinions. These opinions are colored by that particular person’s suppositions.
For example, a few years ago ABC News started a broadcast with 3 stories on homosexuality. I believe these stories were put on and scripted in such a way as to weaken the idea that homosexual marriage or adoption (can’t remember which) was not that bad of an idea. Clearly, long-held suppositions were being attacked, in some cases as the result of a false compassion, i.e, it’s better for a child to at least be in a home with 2 people that love each other (which is a lie in and of itself - being in sin, you can’t be in love), no matter their orientation. I’m not slamming the gay community or not acting in compassion as many are there, truly as a result of their own reactions to sins that have been committed against them. They do not need condemnation, they need love, understanding, compassion and the witness of who Jesus really is.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 7th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Mark,
It’s 3:41AM my time. I’m going to go to bed now, but I’d like for you to find some biblical rationale while I’m sleeping for voting for people who have violated their oaths of office — unless, that is, you can successfuly condemn Ron Paul too.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Mark,
I knew you would rank on the “considered” liberal articles so I posted more than one. I can find a more conservative site if you want more evidence.
I was pointing out that there has been talk of preemptive strike on Iran which you said you never heard anyone talk about.
Even if Iran had 1 nuke that could hit us why would we preemptively strike them?
Did we with Russia, China, Pakistan, India, North Korea, etc…
No we never freaked out like we are now.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
dantrenner,
Military presence is not occupation. So where are we occupying, as has been stated?
Davy,
As far as the issues you mentioned - I know it is difficult for some. However, part of that issue is people living beyond their means. If we are following God and being wise, He will provide for us. That is the Biblical witness.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 7th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
We are judged by God as individuals for living beyond our means, but we are certainly judged by God as a nation living beyond its means as well.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
What is the difference between “military presence” and “occupation” in your opinion?
February 7th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Occupation denotes telling them how to run their country, i.e., you have the final say. Military presence is welcomed or else we would not be there, and is a form of protection for that country.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Dennis I do believe people live outside their means but most people working two or three jobs are struggling to make ends meet without being in debt. If they are in debt, they are borrowing because their wages are not keeping up with the devalued dollar (inflation).
A 2007 dollar isn’t worth as much as a 1945 dollar was or buys as much.
Everytime the unconstitutional Federal Reserve (private bankers) countefeit money (print money) the dollar becomes more worthless.
I truly believe America is facing God’s judgement because our leaders do not follow the law of the land.
You reap what you sow.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
IMO, we now have two choices in Repub run up to nomination as Christians.
We support Pro-War and Pro-death candidates, or Pro-life and Pro-peace candidates.
Are you willing to give up all your conservative principles for the mistake known as the War in Iraq.
(Remember, War on Iraq is different from going after Bin laden or a war on terror of the perpetrators of 9/11.)
It’s laid out before us pretty clearly now, do we choose life or do we choose death.
No brainer to me.
February 7th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Dan:
rest well. that would be silly for me to try and find rational for such. Nor do I accept your premise that I think it would be O.K. to vote for someone that would be so dishonest. I haven’t mentioned in this forum who I would vote for only who I could not. I may take the rout of writing in the candidate I want rather than sitting out the election. The first President I voted for was Reagan and have never missed an election since. I can tell you this also I could never vote for McCain either.
Davy:
To say that all options are on the table and to make sure that Iran knows that we will protect out interest it not the same as a dead set plan of iminent attack as you & Ron Paul imply we have. And keep in mind that the National Intelegence Estimate stated that this type of pressure is the reason that Iran has backed off on their rhetoric and Nuke ambitions.
February 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I would like to point out another inconstancy in Mr. Paul’s Rhetoric.
In the above letter he states he would like to require Federal Reserve to televise its meetings. How does that square with the right to privacy as inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights? Doesn’t that sound like a government intrusion, as the Fed is a private organization? It may sound like a great Idea and resonates with many Americans but is it consistent. Or let me guess, he doesn’t accept the validity of those established precedents? Or perhaps he feels that all the amendments are invalid as they were not part of the original constitution? None the less does this mean he has violated his oath to uphold the constitution, or just the parts he agrees with? So Dan, in light of this, how do you feel about voting for Mr Paul since it would appear he desires to violate his oath?
February 7th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Dennis,
The coalition provisional authority drafted the LAW OF ADMINISTRATION FOR THE STATE OF IRAQ FOR THE TRANSITIONAL PERIOD and you are not going to tell me that we didn’t make sure we had an active part in drafting their Constitution…. you are in complete denial…. if they wanted us there, they wouldn’t be attacking our Military and if I might steal a quote - call their young suicide bombers “freedom fighters”
So by your own definition we are occupying Iraq…
February 7th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Mark,
Paul and I are just stating fact of what the liberals like Rudy of the Repub party, have said throughout this campaign towards WH.
It doesn’t seem like I’m going to convince you about “mistake”(quoting W.Bush ) of being in Iraq or the problems we create with our contradicting US foreign policy, until you understand it more. However it does sound like your starting to educate yourself abit.
God Bless Bro
“Never give up liberty, American law, or our core ideas for the sake of a false security., or for one issue.” - my motto
February 7th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
How right it is for America to have private bankers making money off you and I for doing nothing more than printing money. We would go to jail if we try to sent up a competing private bank.
Jefferson even warned against Federal Reserve (private banks).
Check out this pastors view on Fed Reserve and debt.
http://screamfreedom.blogspot.com/2007/12/conquering-spirit-of-debt.html
February 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Mark D: I believe the Federal Reserve isn’t even based out of America, so I don’t believe it follows under the Constitutionally protected rights of Freedom.
Allow me ask: What is really more important? Us policing the world and staying in Iraq, or our economy, free markets, and health care collapsing around us? Because, if all of these collapse, it isn’t going to matter if we’re taking care of all the peoples of the world - we won’t have a pot to pee in and food on our table.
Look at the tent cities in Southern California because the people have over-borrowed because they didn’t think for their selves what they could afford. I realize and agree it’s their own fault - and we should not be bailing them out - but my point is, that is soon to be the outcome of many cities throughout America if we don’t fix our economy. Dr. Paul is the only one well-versed enough in it to know how to do it - and he wouldn’t have his hands in it! He would let US fix it through the Free Markets! This would fix the very expensive health care industry we have also that so many depend on.
Also, out of the two remaining candidates (if, in fact, Mr. Romney is really dropping out… as of now he’s suspending his campaign) Congressman Paul is the only one that will deal with Immigration on a level that is truly Conservative and will help our country the best.
Dr. Paul’s solution to the Islamic Threat issue might be different than what you would like, but what about the rest? He is very strong on DEFENSE and protecting our country here at home. How is that wrong? We go overseas and “protect” other countries but kill how many hundreds of thousands of innocent Civilians in the name of “Freedom from Terrorism”.
Think back to Jefferson - he studied the Quran because he needed to know how to deal with the Islamic Fasicists in his time - the Barbary Pirates! He didn’t go attacking their countries and try to change their country into a Republic Democracy. He used the CONSTITUTION to institute Marques of Reprisal to go after the individuals whom were kidnapping and terrorizing our citizens.
PRINCIPLES DO NOT CHANGE OVER TIME! Do the principles of the Covenant the Lord made with us at Sinai change just because “times change”! NO! The Constitution was and is a set of PRINCIPLES upon which our Country was established. People might change but the basic operating principles of how to deal with others does NOT change! Why can’t we understand this. Did not our own Creator himself tell us through Solomon -the wisest man on Earth- there is Nothing New Under the Sun!
February 7th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Michelle,
Drafting law for a transitional period is not the same as occupation. The country is transitioning to being self-governed after a long period of being ruled by a dictator. Transitional means just what it means. We have put pressure at some level on the Iraqis to speed up the process. Again, do we just leave and let chaos reign. Is that called love? I do not think so.
If there is the idea that this war was pre-planned, I’d like to see the factual basis for it. Otherwise, it’s just an opinion. And given the circumstances at the time we went to depose Hussein, after numerous violations of UN resolutions that were not heeded, and after much rhetoric from Hussein, and possible WMD’s, it was a just decision. There has been so much slander against Bush it is ridiculous. God wants us to take Him at His Word, and He takes us at ours. I we slander Bush or Paul or Obama or Clinton or McCain or Huckabee or whoever, we are not in line with God and His Word. Issues are what reign here. In my humble opinion, Paul does have a grasp on some issues, but the Iraq one he is far off. I have seen nothing here to the contrary. If you then respond by saying I’m crazy or whatever, I say convince me by your factual arguments and not empty rhetoric.
BTW, I’m personally glad to see the debate on this - it shows me there’s passion in the Christian camp and we are not just sitting on the sidelines with a fatalistic attitude - blessings to everyone.
Dennis
February 8th, 2008 at 5:17 am
Author: Mark Donovan
Comment:
Dan Quote: “Ahmadinejad never stated he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. An intentional mistranslation by the warmongering corporate media.”
Mark Quote: “So every news agency that carried the video was a willing participant along with every Iranian American that heard what he said and never stood up and sai wait a min? You have lost your mind!”
Hi Mark,
How accurately did the Five Major media report the state of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction? If the past is not a good measure for the present, then I don’t know how to reach one’s mind. I shouldn’t have to say so, but will be remiss if I don’t. The West’s media is very slanted. If you haven’t done much traveling outside America, you couldn’t possibly know this. But it is true. You should have read some of the rest of the world press. But I understand the boastful claims we make of “freedom of press,” while we are actually bereft of major world truth. Actually, though it takes a bit of work, you CAN find the truth in America, but it’s not easy after being bombarded with a carefully orchestrated presentation of the world in nightly thirty minute shows. The press in most of the rest of the world is really a lot more objective. (There aren’t as many of them trying to sell arms and upholding the ideas behind the same.)
Having lived on five continents and six islands of the world gives me a bit broader scope to what is really going on in the world, but the truth is, that the Five Major Media ARE “war mongering” media in most of the rest of the world’s eyes because it is the truth. (When does a skunk recognize another one has walked in or one has walked out because of the odor?)
America IS the leading world country and economy (for how much longer, I do not know), but our people need a narrower rather than broader perspective to gain the truth. Truth is truth, period. There isn’t one truth for me and another for you. When you say the things you do, by parroting the main stream media, it won’t dawn on you that you’ve been victimized until you begin to do some thinking outside the box or your own ox gets gored.
Ron Paul did not blossom and bloom over night. He’s been saying these things for decades. I was a staunch supporter even though I wasn’t living in Texas, but there was no clearer voice on Constitutionality than his, yet his colleagues ran roughshod over him. Now, we have the entanglements to try to straighten out. And the voices I hear are calling for another rioting thief and oath violator in favor of the one who has an untarnished RECORD. Records used to mean something. There is the danger that we allowed these things to go on too long already and that there is no retreat. Too little too late. We don’t recognize the truth any longer. But we had surely better give it a try, because it worked magic in the golden era of civilization before we became jaded. We don’t recognize truth any more because we have no love for it to be saved, 2Th 2:9, spiritually or physically.
A man who can think for himself does not simply parrot CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC or Faux (pun intended)! Sadly, in America the truth is a lot harder to learn because we’re so busy with our nightly entertainment. We do not realize, like the church at Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22), because we are so rich, that we must pay the consequences of sowing braggadocios Emperor’s Clothing Claims while refusing to scream bloody murder while the International Banksters stole all our wealth and actually REMOVED our gold. We have actually stood by and done nothing because we think we’re so great.
Please see http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=f8U-k_g56RA and pay particular attention from 4:45 on concerning the media. Who or what is it that’s taking over the whole world??? If that video doesn’t shake you, I must simply shake my head.
We must become hot or we’ll become cold and that’s the danger facing us now. Ron Paul is the only man running on either side, and the only one who has run since Reagan and before who has a record of being HOT while the rest of us turned very cold. For the sake of our country let us finally return to what made us great. Far be it for me to try to improve on the Holy Spirit, let me just quote him for any who have ears to hear:
Rev 3:14-22″To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
February 8th, 2008 at 6:06 am
Strange …. I’ve put a post in twice and nothing came of it.
February 8th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Even after the third try, it’s not going in. I’ll break it into two posts.
February 8th, 2008 at 6:31 am
Part One:
Author: Dennis Preston
Comment:
dantrenner,
Dennis Quote: “Military presence is not occupation. So where are we occupying,
as has been stated?”
So, Dennis, have it your way. Instead of occupation, what if there were military
encampments in Canada, Mexico, etc., et. al? I suppose it still wouldn’t shake you.
Dennis Quote: “Is Scott Ritter more informed then the Mossad? I would guess not.”
Could we agree that Scott has fewer axes to grind than either the Mossad who
want our protection or the US media which is being used to shape the world into
a One World Government?
I wonder if you would please watch:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=f8U-k_g56RA
I’d love to hear your comments on that.
Dennis Quote: “The things I mentioned about Ron Paul are not smoke and mirrors.
These are things he has said plainly which to me do not have any basis in fact,
and are, in fact, quite contrary to what the reality is.”
I would just love it if you would put some meat on the bones of your statements.
WHAT is “quite contrary to what the reality is?” You keep talking like this
without any objective content. WHAT is actually without “any basis in fact” that
Ron Paul has resorted to, to win the nomination, heh? He, he, heh!
Dennis Quote: ” I think his conclusions are wrong. Faulty conclusion would lead
to faulty application. If a doctor were to draw a conclusion that you had
malaria and gave you the proper drugs for that, yet your problem was not malaria
but something else, such that the drugs you were given for malaria would
actually make you sicker, that doctor would be charged with malpractice.”
Now I’m really snickering because you’ve obviously missed Dr. Ron Paul’s
sentiments with the same analogies that if a doctor prescribes the wrong
medicine and the patient isn’t getting any better, more of the same kind of
medicine isn’t going to help. But you’re not willing to tell us what conclusions
Ron Paul has that are wrong. Mind sharing a few?
Mind you, if you do share some, I trust you’ll be willing to barter opinion for
facts? Do remember, please, that Dr. Ron Paul and I have been entertaining these
matters and answering questions about them for many, many years. In my own case,
it began with a trip to Washington, D. C., when I was in Youth For Christ’s
“Capital Teen Convention.” I was sixteen years old. I became very intrigued by
the Constitution of the United States, and while growing up my peers would humor
my political cries, but laughed at them in their hearts. They don’t today. Both
they and my family — to the person — has admitted I was right and they were
sorely wrong. And finally, they too are voting on the side of honesty, decency
and Christian morality.
Give me all the things we Christians have wanted of our country and show me one
of them that Ron Paul has missed.
Dennis, My Friend and Brother in Christ (I trust you are, IN Christ), get a grip
on what’s been going on in this country and realize you’re the pudding’s proof
that the onslaught against our liberties, our money, and our faith has been
working so very, very well.
Dennis Quote: “Now I clearly do not have access to the information he has. I do
not believe everything I read. At the same time, there is truth is what is
written in the media. One has to sift through the rhetoric, understand that what
is often portrayed as fact is opinion, and that opinions of others are just
that, opinions. These opinions are colored by that particular person’s
suppositions.”
Then, please, do …
Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding!
Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.
“Do not forsake her, and she will guard you;
Love her, and she will watch over you.
“The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom;
And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
Most of America has utterly forgotten what the Union of the States of America
are to be all about. I shall now give you Don Wood’s “My Little American Test:
Your honesty to yourself should drive home the only point that needs to be made:
Part Two Next:
February 8th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Part Two:
Sorry … it will NOT load. However, I published it here. Just scroll down for Don L. Wood’s “My Little American Test.”
http://digg.com/people/Hindu_invocation_in_Senate_disrupted_by_Christian_activists?t=7773953
Dan
February 8th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Author: wisdomssister
Comment:
Wisdomssister’s Quote:
“Think back to Jefferson - he studied the Quran because he needed to know how to deal with the Islamic Fasicists in his time - the Barbary Pirates! He didn’t go attacking their countries and try to change their country into a Republic Democracy. He used the CONSTITUTION to institute Marques of Reprisal to go after the individuals whom were kidnapping and terrorizing our citizens.
PRINCIPLES DO NOT CHANGE OVER TIME! Do the principles of the Covenant the Lord made with us at Sinai change just because “times change”! NO! The Constitution was and is a set of PRINCIPLES upon which our Country was established. People might change but the basic operating principles of how to deal with others does NOT change! Why can’t we understand this. Did not our own Creator himself tell us through Solomon -the wisest man on Earth- there is Nothing New Under the Sun!”
How very astute of you Wisdom’s Sister! How very astute, indeed! In fact, Congressman Ron Paul Introduced the “Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001,” and it got the usual shuffle from the oath breaking un American Socialist Congress People:
http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press2001/pr101101.htm
Read it and weep:
Paul Offers President New Tool in the War on Terrorism
Washington, DC: Congressman Ron Paul today presented Congress with the “Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001,” legislation designed to give President Bush an additional tool in the fight against terrorism. He also introduced legislation that changes the federal definition of “piracy” to include air piracy.
The Constitution gives Congress the power to issue letters of marque and reprisal when a precise declaration of war is impossible due to the vagueness of the enemy. Paul’s bill would allow Congress to authorize the President to specifically target Bin Laden and his associates using non-government armed forces. Since it is nearly impossible for U.S. intelligence teams to get close to Bin Laden, the marque and reprisal approach creates an incentive for people in Afghanistan or elsewhere to turn him over to the U.S.
“The President promised the American people that the federal government would use every available resource to defeat the global terror network,” Paul stated. “Congress should immediately issue letters of marque and reprisal to add another weapon to the U.S. arsenal. The war on terrorism is very different from past wars, because the enemy is a group of individuals who do not represent any nation. Western intelligence in the Middle East is exceedingly limited, so we should avail ourselves of the assistance of those with better information to track, capture, or kill Bin Laden.”
The Act allows Congress to narrowly target terrorist enemies, lessening the likelihood of a full-scale war with any Middle Eastern nations. The Act also threatens terrorist cells worldwide by making it more difficult for our enemies to simply slip back into civilian populations or hide in remote locations.
“Once letters of marque and reprisal are issued, every terrorist is essentially a marked man,” Paul concluded. “Congress should issue such letters and give the President another weapon to supplement our military strikes.”
Think of the lives that could have been saved, and think how an elite group probably would have caught Osama Bin Laden. WHAT a pity the Congress of the United States and the President of the United States didn’t want to avail to themselves the Constituted rights of the people to go get that terrorist just as they did the Barbery Pirates.
WHAT a pity, indeed.
Enough of this nonsense. Ron Paul should be elected by mandate.
Dan
February 8th, 2008 at 7:38 am
One last comment today. Is this yet another nail in America’s coffin? Think clearly about the implications of this:
“Euros Accepted” Signs Are Popping Up in New York City
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0655798320080206
Ahem!
February 8th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Davy : I know it’s hard to keep up with all the post but I never quoted President Bush nor gave justification for the war in Iraq. But I will say this, I have faith in our Government and also our President and believe he did the best he could with what he had. That’s a lot different position I understand that the “Cut and run Dems” and Micheal Moore , whom I assume you are in agreement with, oh yeah I left out Ron Paul also. Amazes me someone masquerades as a conservative but holds the same position as the most liberal of liberals. So much for being so honorable and faithful. What’s the definition of a hypocrite? Some one who mascarades?
Michelle : Either by intention or mistakenly you represented foreign fighters as the Iraqi people. There is a huge difference. The Iraqi people are the ones that voted in their first free election that we made possible. Don’t you remember all the purple fingers?
Wizzy: How did you get that username? Please correct me if I misstate your position, you feel like the Constitution is equal to our Bible, and can never be amended? So therefore any amendments that have been done in the past you don’t feel you need to obey, because in your opinion they are illegal? What about the changes that referred to slavery? If so how do you reconcile that with your faith?
Dan: The media are a reflection of the employees that work their and of course will always have some bias. Either left or right. But to say that all the media conspired together from both camps to falsely interpret a televised political speech. That’s quite a stretch don’t you think?
February 8th, 2008 at 8:24 am
It appears to me that because Mr Paul has some very sound ideas in relation to our economy, some have just swallowed his whole ideology in all areas even though it is easily demonstarted to be foolish. If he is a geniuine conservative then why did he not fair so well with the AFA?
http://www.afa.net/pdfs/08vg.pdf
Let me guess they are biased against him?
February 8th, 2008 at 10:26 am
dantrenner,
Thanks for your posts and giving some of your background with Ron Paul. I’m going to look at them more closely when I have time, as well as the links.
You had mentioned that I had not given any specifics on him and his positions, so I’ll put out what I believe he has said. Please refute if not correct. I’m not saying they are correct, but this is what I’ve heard him say from his own mouth. If I’m missing something, let me know.
Did he not say that the Iraq war was conceived pre-9/11? Did he not say that the reason we are being attacked is because we are occupying their land? We have a military presence there, and the governments of those countries allow us to be there. If some of their citizens - a small, fanatical minority - do not wish us to be there, I can understand that. Just as some Americans here, such as extreme militia groups, want to do away with the government, espouse ludicrous conspiracy theories (note: I’m NOT equating them with Ron Paul, though the word “conspiracy” has been used in a sentence with his name), etc. That doesn’t mean that they are right, or that we should kowtow to them. On the contrary, much as with a child whining to get his way, you do not give in, otherwise you justify their position. As an analogy, say I was a consultant working with a particular small business at the request of the owner. Further, say I was there to talk with the business about how to make it more efficient, more profitable, etc. And an employee of that business did not like the fact that I was coming in because of a possible threat to their job, and continually voices threats, veiled, or unveiled, that he will ruin my business by spreading lies, innuendos, etc, which may have a SHRED of truth, yet are not the whole truth. Yet the owner wants me there. Do I just leave because of this individual? I do not think logically one could say that you would leave.
These are complex issues. Also, as for the issue of the media around the world being more objective than the American media: I give you credit for having a broader perspective, and I try hard not to be American-centric in terms of my view of the world, because the portrayed American Christian God is not soley focused on America and her well-being. At the same time, which countries do you speak of? Are you at liberty (don’t know your job situation, if that allows you to tell) to tell? Is is Western media, nonetheless? Europe, Australia, etc? American media outside of Fox is largely liberal, no one could argue with that, I do not believe. Fox does have a conservative agenda. Does it not help to have that balance, and to challenge the thoughts and ideals espoused by the left wing media? I also believe that main problem is not a political one, as I’m sure you do. The issue is a moral and spiritual one. I’m not with Rush Limbaugh in saying all of the problems in America are a result of the liberal left, although they play a part in it, and in the same way, so does the conservative right.
More to come, and thanks again dantrenner and others for your perspective. Mark Donovan, let’s join forces to overcome dantrenner, Ron Paul, and others on this forum (I’m teasing-LOL)! I enjoy the debate, thanks!
February 8th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Mark: you said “Amazes me someone masquerades as a conservative but holds the same position as the most liberal of liberals.”
You know, we have Compassionate Conservatives, Moderate-Conservatives, Neo-Conservatives, etc. Do we really know what true conservatism looks like anymore? What if what we brand as Liberalism (or portions of it) are true conservatism? I mean, the dems are more conservative on civil liberties than the Republicans are today! So, who’s to say that the Republicans have it backwards!!!
I’m assuming you were referencing myself when you said “Wizzy” - the name is from Proverbs 7:4 “Say to Wisdom, ‘You are my sister.’”
No I do not believe the Constitution is equal to the Bible and can never be amended. Yes it can be and has been and I accept those amendments that have gone through properly with the proper chain of authority and ratified legally. I see where you’re going. Just because the Constitution has been amended does not change the set of principles of how we govern in regards to the Nations because that has not been amended. Also, let’s look at the amendments that have been introduced and (some of them supposedly) ratified since the inception of the Bill of Rights. The 13th Amendment we see today is not the original 13th Amendment (this is the one about Slavery). The 14th and 16th amendments were never properly ratified. The rest of the amendments deal mainly with Government offices - and not how we related to others. When I mention principles I’m talking about how we relate to others as a Governemnt -we the People. Think of the aboloshing of Alcohol. That was a Principle in relating to people and we saw that it didn’t work - it took away freedoms from the people that our Original Constitution sought to secure. When we tried to change that principle we realized it didn’t work and it had to be repealed.
When we go into other Nations and try to tell them how they should act and live we are taking away the rights of other Nations to be a Sovereign Nation. Are not these so-called terrorists not really terrorists but Freedom Fighters? I am sure that is what they see their selves as. Police students have been instructed that the founding Fathers were terrorists- what were they? They were FREEDOM FIGHTERS! Just because we feel terrorized by their actions are receiving the brunt of it doesn’t mean they are terrorists! They are fighting for Freedom - their right to sovereingity.
Don’t we have enough issues here in the “Homeland” (as Bush has called it) that we should worry about rather than the rest of the world? Why do we have to be their Mother? Aren’t the other countries of the world big enough to take care of their selves or all they all like little school children who need to be told everything to do and how to do it? If we just worry about ourselves and build up our defense… who would want to attack us? And if they did, we would be much better prepared. It’s Common Sense 101. (AFA the “homeland” statement -that in itself raises red flags that we are going about trying to build other Nations; not only that it is directly reminiscent of Hitler for me)
February 8th, 2008 at 11:39 am
“Are not these so-called terrorists not really terrorists but Freedom Fighters?”
What a digusting and offensive statement, you are indeed a very sick individual that you would call someone that walks into a crowd of children and blows themselves up a freedom fighter!! May God have mercy on your demented sick mind!
February 8th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Dennis you said “Did he not say that the Iraq war was conceived pre-9/11? ”
Check out this video from.. here’s an excerpt from the video description: George W. Bush planned the Iraq war from the first National Security Council meeting on, long before the 9/11 attacks took place. This was revealed by Paul O’Neill, former Treasury Secretary under George W. Bush in his book “The Price of Loyalty”. Although this story was already published in 2004, it got only little attention, although it is clearly very important. This clip features excerpts of the interview that “60 minutes” conducted with Paul O’Neill. Take it from an insider: George W. Bush wanted to attack Iraq all along, and 9/11 just gave him the right excuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zteunEcP5-U
February 8th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Wisdomsister,
These people may call themselves freedom fighters but they are seriously deluded in their thinking. In fact, in my mind, they are demonically-inspired. The intentional (note word “intentional”), deliberate, methodical, etc. killing of innocent civilians over a protracted period of time to achieve their ends, especially as suicide bombers, can be nothing else. You might respond by saying that we have killed innocent civilians in Iraq and you are probably correct. Some may have done intentionally, but mostly in error. But to do it on such a large scale and with the methods they use and the intent, how can you say they are freedom fighters? That is not wisdom!
Some may say in the first Gulf war that Kuwait was being attacked by Iraq, and that in our springing to their defense, our motivation was to protect our oil interests. Since when does protecting the interests of your friends, which in turn protects your own interests, constitute occupation? Who cares what these fanatacists (sp?) are saying! To me, that is acquiescing to evil if we leave because of what they are doing, and that is WRONG!!!!
February 8th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Dennis I too enjoy a vigorous debate, but it is very hard to have civil discusions to the benefit of all involved when statements like the murderers of innocent women & children are being called freedom fighters.
February 8th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Mark,
I agree, although I think that wisdomsister indicated that these people see themselves as such. I do not think (I may be wrong) that she is calling them freedom fighters.
However, and this is a big however, Ron Paul has done himself a major disservice in making that same statement, if I recall one of the debates correctly. Again, a lack of clarity on his part, and maybe in part, a poor choice of words and communication. Nonetheless, he said it. That is not a statement of someone who should be leading this country, and Rudy Giuliani and others rightly rebuked him strongly. It also shows a serious lack of a grasp on the issues. Okay, some will respond what issues. Well, if he can’t grasp the fact that these people are not freedom fighters and state that they are deluded in what they are doing, then God help us if Paul is ever elected. I fear that he would be much worse than Jimmy Carter was. Paul would be in way over his head. He already is, despite what has been written here.
February 8th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Freedom Fighters: I was asking a question for purpose of discussion to get the minds rolling. Yes, I believe they see their selves as freedom fighters. The method that they choose to go about doing it is completely and utterly demonic and horrible. I do not believe that Representative Paul would even begin to endorse this action - he himself supports a peaceful Revolution without guns and violence.
Paul sees that these people are fighting for their own freedom - I have never heard him endorse that their method is the right way to go about doing it. In the delusion of those who perpetrate the terror, they believe they are justified. After all, look to the Book that legitimizes their actions. Paul has not denied that this is a religious war- he takes issue with how we are going about dealing with it. His stance on solving the issue is different than the mainstream. He holds to the Christian attitude of the Just War theory which is 600 years old and our Country held at its inception.
I guess, you could look at it like this - we’ve been trying to solve this problem for 20 years this way and it hasn’t worked yet… why don’t we try a different tactic?
February 8th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
My apologies wisdomssister, I misunderstood you. Please forgive me.
February 8th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
that’s okay mark
I don’t take offense too easily.
February 8th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Thanks, That’s just a touchy one for me, I have a brother about to return on his third tour, and a good friend there now. I see your point.
February 8th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Hey Mark,
You said, “It appears to me that because Mr Paul has some very sound ideas in relation to our economy, some have just swallowed his whole ideology in all areas even though it is easily demonstarted to be foolish. If he is a geniuine conservative then why did he not fair so well with the AFA?
http://www.afa.net/pdfs/08vg.pdf”
I can’t open this link, but the only reason I can see that our Christian media haven’t come out for Ron Paul is because they don’t see him as one who can beat the Democrats. Therefore, it was more or less decided, not by conspiracy, but by “relevant wisdom” that he would be a wus. Actually, he does kind of come across like that to some people, but his message and especially his RECORD speaks volumes.
I don’t like comments saying, ‘his whole ideology is easily demonstrated to be foolish,’ but without the demonstration. If it is so easy, then put it up.
I keep asking you to go to www.ronpaul2008.com/issues and to take some of these up. What points exactly don’t you agree with. Enlighten us.
Best,
Dan
February 8th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Dennis, this link has already been put up. I had not seen it until just now. However, I had heard from these sources before, and it’s common enough knowledge that Bush had Iraq in mind on day one. The US media, of course, wants the oil and riches that war brings. So … what could we expect? Do you think they would bite the hand that feeds them? http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zteunEcP5-U
Best, and I’m calling it a night at 1:21AM
Dan in India and I’m a Christian worker here.
February 8th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
dantrenner,
Blessings on you man! Thanks, I’m going to look at the youtube link as well as Paul’s website and his stand on the issues.
best regards,
Dennis
February 8th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
I quit the AFA when they started pushing Christmas on everybody…. I just could not picture my Lord forcing people to recognize His birthday…. He wanted us all to Love HIm because we Want to… He didnt’ want robots that is why He gave us the choice to obey or disobey at the Garden.
The AFA does not represent me anymore…. And I am a conservative.
All of you who say: Aww! Poor people of Iraq if we leave!! How about the genocide in Darfur?!! Huh, if you really call yourselves Christian, why not help them? I’ll tell you why…. this government has duped all of us in believeing in this crazy war in Iraq. I say “us” because I voted for G.W. twice and I once believed in the war just like all of you.
The reason why no one in our govt cares about Darfur is because there is no PROFIT there. Follow the money, people! Your sons and daughters are dying for big money.
NO ONE HERE has commented on my statement that Ron Paul has received the MOST DONATIONS FROM THE MILITARY THAN ANY OTHER CANDIDATE, REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT!!!!
And here is the commentary from one such soldier who has ACTUALLY been in Iraq…. Do yourself a favor: Check it out. You will learn what is actually going on over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUIk-zDY_E4
In this whole thread, the argument that has dominated is the Iraq occupation/war.
WHY? Because that is the only topic that this govt has used to string the Christians along. That is the ONLY disagreement with most Christians and Ron Paul. Learn the truth, my brothers and sisters. I was once one of you. But I have seen the light. What light is that, you say?
At the inception of this Country, God enlightened our Founding Fathers to create a document called the Constitution. And although it was not directly divinely inspired as the Bible was, it does carry the divine breath of Life that Created this Country, and what is that?
THE IMPORTANCE OF PERSONAL LIBERTY.
Satan has hated our Country, because He has always warred against God’s sacred principle of LIBERTY.
And now he has attacked us with laws such as the UNCONSTITUTIONAL Patriot Act.
And what about our Economy? They’re already accepting Euros in NY!! Does anybody care what is happening financially? Check the candidates that are left and ask yourself how much they know…. When Ron Paul asked McCain a question about the economy, he garbled a bunch of rubbish that amounted to a big DUH!!! How about Huckabee…. Yeah, great Conservative he is…. increasing taxes in AK more than Clinton did when he was gov.
So the question is: Are you willing to give up everything that this Country has been blessed with just to stand up for a war that even Huckabee stated was a mistake? Are you willing to give up your God-given Liberties? Your economic future, the economic future of your children and childrens children?!! This is outrageously UNCHRISTIAN!!
God uses us to do His will here on earth. Yes, we must pray for His will. I sincerely believe that in answer to that prayer He has sent Dr. Paul. Now it’s up to us. Just like that story about the flood waters reaching the rooftops and the person who decided not to accept any help because God was going to save him…. what happened? Ya’ll know the story: When he got to Heaven God asked him why he didn’t accept the help. He had to do his part.
It’s time for us to do our part. And let me tell you; Christians are waking up everywhere… just like Christianbusinessdaily.com; Pat Buchanan and many others like myself and those who have posted here.
I will no longer be posting on this site. I have much work to do…. spreading the message of FREEDOM…. Yes, it is greater than just one man. We care about the principles of Liberty.
I have no more to say to you here. I hope you see the video and pray that God gives you discernment, for I do believe that we live in the last days.
God Bless the USA!!
February 8th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Michelle:
That was the most profound (of many) post yet on this topic. You’re right. This whole discussion has been about whether we made a colossal, un-Christian mistake invading Iraq and buying into the whole NeoCon justification for empire.
It is very had to admit one has made a mistake, and even harder to admit one was deceived by those he trusted and had faith in. That is the situation today with many Christians who supported Bush and his war. It is not much different than realizing one has unknowingly become a member of a cult.
Mentally and emotionally breaking free is extremely difficult. But a number of people posting on this topic have spoken of just that. Hopefully the others will actually take time to look at the evidence provided so patiently and prayerfully ask for discernment and humility.
When Christ said that even the elect would be deceived, he didn’t exempt any of us from that possibility. That’s a tough pill to swallow for our little egos that like to think we’re to smart for that to happen. Most con men will tell you that Christians are among the easiest cons because they project their honesty and good will onto others and want to believe that no one who calls themselves a Christian would ever deceive them.
America is rapidly sliding into a form of fascism (call it “corporatism” is that is easier for you to accept). The liberty that was fought for so hard by our forefathers is not only almost gone, but no even well understood. I submit many of the comments in previous postings by others as evidence.
It is time for Christians to wake up and take responsibility. And for goodness sake, turn off FAUX News, Rush, and all the other NeoCon deceivers out there. The and the “liberal media” are just two sides of the same deceptive coin tightening the mental chains on us.
God bless you!
Porter
February 8th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Mark,
I hope your aware that Hillary and Demos are not going to “cut and run” as you put it. They support staying in Iraq. They’ve supported and funded it just as much as the Neocons have.
Paul is the only one who would take the conservative high ground and abide by the law of the land, the Constitution, bringing troops back to America’s soil to protect Americans.
Second, W Bush quote, was a quote where Bush said going into Iraq was a mistake but in the same breathe said were staying. Kinda of sounds like a flip-flopper to me.
W. Bush is about as liberal as they come when it comes to big government Repubs or also known as Neocons or RINO’s.
Anyone that would say Constitution is just and I quote ” a GD piece of paper”, is no friend of conservatives or America.
Now Paul has expressed to be against the Bush declared “mistake” occupation of Iraq, but he did vote to go after the real perpetrators of 9/11.
Bush can’t seem to get that job done. In fact he keeps propping up the dictators in the area with billions, because of our insane foreign policies of creating dictators/Saddam’s/Bin Laden’s and empowering them.
God has shown me that Paul is the man for our times. Paul’s wisdom and unshakable character surpasses all of the other candidates by far.
If you want more of the same, then vote for the liberals running. it’s your right.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord, the Prince of Peace, by voting for the most conservative candidate running, Ron Paul.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Porter’s Quote: “It is time for Christians to wake up and take responsibility. And for goodness sake, turn off FAUX News, Rush, and all the other NeoCon deceivers out there. The and the “liberal media” are just two sides of the same deceptive coin tightening the mental chains on us.
God bless you!
Porter”
AND God bless you, Porter. I’m so sick of the religious political pundits who figured in the very beginning that Ron Paul wasn’t electable and therefore didn’t stand behind him. They are the ones who kept the masses from being able to weigh the truth. However, I truly see some unrest in the ranks. It’s almost amusing. But I think God is teaching them something. They didn’t heed his word then and they’d better do so now. Israel was given several chances, and maybe God will give us one. (Please, Lord!)
They were looking for a Christian dictator and got it in the form of Bush who (according to Matthew 7) is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He’s lied to us, violated his oath to the Constitution by calling it a “God-damned piece of paper,” and his other behavior means he should be tried for treason. (Yes, I know it’s a capital offense, but no worry as there are no Constitutional United States Attorney’s out there either.)
God established his promised kingdom on the day of Pentecost, and fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Joel 2:28-32 perfectly. Since Peter’s message on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) men and women have been being born again into the kingdom of God. But the Neo-CONS deceived those who were lured by their siren’s song into believing America could become the peace keeper of the world — in spite of the way our Constitution limited us to do it. We forgot God and our own limits of always telling the truth and instead we found our delights in the men who were deceiving us. It’s an age old story. Satan is the father of lies, but Truth is easily identifiable. Truth is the man, Jesus the Christ. So, find a man who is willing to tell the truth, and abide his oath and make him our president. There is only one. He is Ron Paul.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:29 am
And … all the more reason I shall write in Ron Paul’s name on my ballot, if I must. Just received this from Ron:
February 8, 2008
Whoa! What a year this has been. And what achievements we have had. If I may quote Trotsky of all people, this Revolution is permanent. It will not end at the Republican convention. It will not end in November. It will not end until we have won the great battle on which we have embarked. Not because of me, but because of you. Millions of Americans — and friends in many other countries — have dedicated themselves to the principles of liberty: to free enterprise, limited government, sound money, no income tax, and peace. We will not falter so long as there is one restriction on our persons, our property, our civil liberties. How much I owe you. I can never possibly repay your generous donations, hard work, whole-hearted dedication and love of freedom. How blessed I am to be associated with you. Carol, of course, sends her love as well.
Let me tell you my thoughts. With Romney gone, the chances of a brokered convention are nearly zero. But that does not affect my determination to fight on, in every caucus and primary remaining, and at the convention for our ideas, with just as many delegates as I can get. But with so many primaries and caucuses now over, we do not now need so big a national campaign staff, and so I am making it leaner and tighter. Of course, I am committed to fighting for our ideas within the Republican party, so there will be no third party run. I do not denigrate third parties — just the opposite, and I have long worked to remove the ballot-access restrictions on them. But I am a Republican, and I will remain a Republican.
I also have another priority. I have constituents in my home district that I must serve. I cannot and will not let them down. And I have another battle I must face here as well. If I were to lose the primary for my congressional seat, all our opponents would react with glee, and pretend it was a rejection of our ideas. I cannot and will not let that happen.
In the presidential race and the congressional race, I need your support, as always. And I have plans to continue fighting for our ideas in politics and education that I will share with you when I can, for I will need you at my side. In the meantime, onward and upward! The neocons, the warmongers, the socialists, the advocates of inflation will be hearing much from you and me.
Sincerely,
Ron
February 9th, 2008 at 7:23 am
So, is Ron Paul still running?
Oh yes, he’s running more strongly than before, but it’s time for our commitment to become as strong as his. I knew this when he said he would NOT run an independent campaign. So, the question is whether we really understand “r3VOLution?” It has only just began!!!
This means that more than ever before we have to talk to our friends, relatives and reach out to everyone else and let them know about what Ron is actually saying and standing for. Go here: www.ronpaul2008.com/issues. It is now our turn to stand as he has stood. Do we want him? Then step up to the microphone and get busy like
you never have before. This could very easily be America’s last stand.
Frankly, though I’ve prayed for something like this to happen in America, I didn’t think it would ever happen, yet my prayers have been answered, and it’s time to take a STAND. Even my entire family, from ex-wife to brother and mother have voted for Ron Paul!!! I keep telling people, “Regardless of what happens, by my sacred pledge, I will write his name in on my ballot if I must.”
When the religious and political pundits get it through their thick skulls that THEY are the ones that have botched the primary nominations up and will get THEIR HELL out of the way, their censorship, and let Ron Paul TELL IT like it is,
instead of laud and honor only the ones they think can win, then the rest of the nation is going to hear us loud and clear. They wouldn’t let Ron speak because THEY didn’t think he was electable. Well, the people have had it! And that’s what a victory will require. People have GOT to vote with their hearts and consciouses and forget their stupid party line.
Actually, I put most of the blame on the so called Christian right. The Pat Robertson’s, Dobson’s, the AFA, OneNewsNow, WND, etc., BECAUSE they have led the person that wants Christ into a hell hole with their religious and
unconstitutional politics of championing liars, cheats and oath violators as their friends and endorsements! Do you remember when Pat Robertson cheered on Guiliani, a cross dressing, divorcing, homorphic, abortionist because he wanted someone who could keep the power within his PARTY!? What a moron. Now I think he might be close to going for Ron. Huckabee won’t last. And Pat’s old campaign man is now running Ron’s campaign.
No, it’s a calculated risk, but is probably the RIGHT thing to do. Without an “all stops out” theme song, and the commitment to DO IT emblazened across our chests, our country is in the toilet anyway. Let all your family know! Imagine a revolution of the delegates who have said they would vote for Huckster or McCAIN.
Don’t forget, the electoral votes may have been cast for whatever oath violater they cast them for, but they are NOT required to vote for the liar at the convention! They can turn their backs on their liars and vote for Ron Paul. The more of our precinct workers there are, the more level headed people there are to talk to the rest who don’t know diddly squat about what is really in jeopardy.
Ron Paul is a dandy. I love him for it so very much. He will not give up even his seat in the Congress while he has breath to keep on talking. He will not quit even if he is not elected our president. If he isn’t elected, I don’t think we have any more time. He can’t run again. He’s too old then. Not now, but he would be too old then. He’d have to champion someone else. And that person will not have the commitment Ron has had. No one, I mean, no one EVER (starting with George Washington), has had the record he has now. No one! There will never be another Ron Paul. We must give him our mandate and make him our president or I think it’s all over but the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Stand up Americans and make his message be HEARD.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
dantrenner,
Your rhetoric has gone over the top. I understand you’re passionate, but calling Pat Robertson a moron or Mike Huckabee Huckster is a little much. Also your comments on Guiliani are way out fo line. I disagree with much of what he stood for, but your words are plain wrong. Frankly, I think we should expect more from you than that. From what I’ve seen of the Paul crowd, though, this is not uncommon. Not all his supporters, but some. Therein lies part of the rub with the Paul crowd (again some, not all): believe the way we do and follow us, or you’re all lunatics. That will get you nowhere, which is precisely what is occurring with him in the race.
Blessings,
Dennis
February 9th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Okay, I’ve looked at some of the Ron Paul site, and his stand on issues. I wholeheartedly disagree with his stand on abortion. He proposes that it not be regulated, for or against, by the national government, but by the state governments. What’s the problem with this?
Well, let’s go back in our country to the issue of slavery. Even today many in southern states have the same stand today as they did then. It’s a state’s right issue. Let the states decide. In the paraphrased words of Mike Huckabee, we are then making morality a geographical issue. But what did Lincoln do? He declared slavery wrong and sought to make a national law against it. There is no difference with the issue of abortion. Ron Paul is fundamentally wrong on this issue, and if this is not dealt with on the national level, rather than driven down to the state level, we will have another civil war. There will be states that outlaw abortion and those that will allow it and it will be a huge mess, and we will have a civil war of some sort. 50 million babies have been aborted in America. Do we think we will escape God’s judgement by allowing this to be a state issue? Lincoln said the Civil War was God’s judgement on America for slavery. We have shed much more blood in killing babies. Judgement is coming. We must pray and seek God for revival in this nation. That is the key issue. While we follow our constitution because it is our governing document, there is a higher authority and His name is the Lord Almighty.
For this reason, I will never vote for Ron Paul. I do not even need to look at any further issues. This is the key issue for me. I am praying that a miracle occurs for Huckabee, who helped amend the Arkansas constitution to protect life. I would urge you to vote for him.
Blessings,
Dennis
P.S. I realize that some will disagree with me, and I know many, including Michael Pink, disagree on my choice of candidate and support Ron Paul. He and they are voting their conscience. That does not mean we are any less brother or sister in Christ.
I pray God’s richest blessings on Michael and all who frequent this blog!
February 9th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Also, for those who say you cannot legislate morality, that is true in one respect. You cannot MAKE someone make a correct moral choice. However, murder is a moral issue, and we legislate against it and the government rightly seeks to punish those who do it. That is mercy to them because for someone to get away with it in this life, and not receive their consequence until they die and are before the judgement seat (unless they repent and become Christians before they die), that is far worse than to be caught in this life and receive your consequences. That just might save someone from hell. From this we see government is an instrument of mercy in the hand of God. May it be so today.
Blessings, Dennis
February 9th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Dennis,
Perhaps you’re right? Maybe I was over the top? I will consult God’s Word whether that is something I should be ashamed of.
By the way do you think Jesus was over the top when he called the Pharisees the names he used? Oh, that’s right. He was God. Well then, what about John the Baptist. He was over the top, alright.
Is it really over the top when our *religious* leaders side with the likes of Guiliani only because they want to protect their party, instead of the morals that ARE involved? Are such words describing his open sins simply … over the top?
As I understand the word, “church,” it’s supposed to mean “the called out ones.” When leaders of it speak one thing out of one side of their mouths and the opposite out of the other side, the bible calls that lying and they SHALL have their part in the lake of fire, Rev 21:8. We are either for him or against him. If that is all just over the top, then you deserve what you get. The one thing that seems to blind you is that Ron Paul is NONE of those things and yet you’ll side with those who are? You’ll make excuses for them!? Hmmm.
I’m a lot older than you are, Dennis, and have prayed for over forty years for something like this to happen in America, but the two generations that are behind me simply prove the Word of God, and there is probably no saving of America. Blindly the revel onwards oblivious to the tragedy that befalls them. The people have NOT served God, they obviously hate him as also will their posterity. The man who loves God keeps his commandments regardless of whether it “seems” inordinate or not.
God has judged us for our lack of speaking up. Even our philosophers have said something about what happens when good men do nothing.
Dennis, you’re soft on homosexuality. That was clear by what you wrote whether you will now deny it or try to justify it as you’re doing with patent morals of the church leaders. How many of them have you caused to repent? (Fat chance, eh? Take your pick as to whether I meant religious leaders or homosexuals.) I remind you that there is a just God and your duty to him is found in Matthew 5:48. I pray you will not only look it up, but learn how to accomplish what needs to be done. Sadly, with your attitude, and so many more even more liberal than you, this may not happen in America and she may well be finished. I honestly thought that the so called PATRIOT Act was the straw that broke the camels back, but when Ron Paul decided to run I have pitched in with all I’ve got. His running may be nothing more than God’s judgment to prove the lying mouths who claim to belong to him on one hand (2Th 2), but who belong to the devil as Jesus said. I penned the following words to many of my American brethren after the PATRIOT Act who wouldn’t even BEG their elected officials to have a debate on the PA. Need I write them to you as well?
“We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
(Did you dare to take Don Wood’s “My Little American Test?” I didn’t think so.) Anyway, I made most of them angry after I wrote those words, even my own brother. BUT they did finally rise up and started writing their elected representatives, and finally they even voted in their primaries for Ron Paul. I thought when they finally picked up their pens and put them to paper, as I do about you, that it was too little too late, and I have separated myself from such evil and will continue to do so, though I may stand alone. I AM INDEED over the top and pray for you also.
In Christ,
Dan
February 10th, 2008 at 2:54 am
Dennis & Company,
Please see two videos. By the way, I am NOT a Chuck Baldwin fan. The first video may be hard to watch, but I hope you will listen carefully to what the lady was reading from Chuck. Then check the date of her video and square that with the date of Chuck’s own video later. Why did it take Chuck so long to come forward. What the lady reads first, proabably bears the answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JztwCGfK3rw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84pJ6E7BYg&feature=related
February 10th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Dennis,
We do legislate morality against murder.
However we also allow government to steal the profits from men’s labor.
Romans 13 in America is not about leaders we elect every 4 yrs, as being God’s servant to keep people in line.
No in America the Constitution is the leader that even corrupt leaders like we have today are suppose to abide by. if they break the Constitution they break the law of the land.
Even if Congress votes for President to go to war unconstitutionally, they are still breaking the law. For one they have no authority to change the law unless they amend the constitution. They must do it legally to.
Not some overnight thing were theyre trying to hide it from the people like 16th amend.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
dantrenner,
You have confirmed what I wrote earlier. First, you are not Jesus or John the Baptist, nor do you have the platform they have to speak out as you do. What you are doing with Pat Robertson is saying that you know the motives and intents of his heart, which you do not. I disagree with him endorsing Giuliani; however, I am not his judge and jury and neither are you, as to why he did it. Are you the Holy Spirit? It is one thing to speak out against what he did, it is another to call him a moron. If I take the same stand against you and start calling you names, is that right? I’d say, you need to act your age.
You ask, which church leaders have caused me to repent. Well, here’s a short list (in no particular order):
Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, John Paul Jackson, John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown, John Piper, Rick Joyner, Larry Tomczak, Steve Hill, to name just a few. There are others.
You say that I am soft on homosexuality - how do you know that?! Because I don’t rail against them with hatred? Because I say that most, if not all of them, have been sinned against, and in their reaction to what happened to them - their own sin - they have chosen a path against God? Their sin is wrong in what they have chosen. Can I not be plainer? Should I be like the pharisees who sought to stone the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery, or should I seek to be like Jesus? What they are doing is wrong, and they do need to be confronted with that truth. Some need a rock hammer, some need a velvet hammer.
I’ll give you praying for America for 40 years or more. You are not that much older than I, I will be 45 this year. I am not a liberal, I am very conservative, yet I understand the problem with our country is neither liberal or conservative or a particular political party - it is sin! To blame one side or the other entirely is plain wrong! Judgement begins with the house of God! We as the church have fallen down and we have no moral authority as a result. Instead of praying for our leaders, we condemn them. We do need to speak out against them when they do wrong; we also need to pray for them more than we speak out.
I will allow your words to search me; will you allow mine to search you? If there is truth in what you write, I will stand corrected and turn from my ways. I will open my mind as that being a possibility. Will you do the same?
February 10th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I would also add. Not following the Constitution, the law of the land, is why were a debtor nation, is why we have abortion on demand in every state, is why the police are paramilitary style enforcers now, why habeas corpus is no more, why America will fall in the years to come, if we don’t turn from our wicked ways.
Ron Paul is the prophet, warning the people of the impending doom to come if we don’t turn around and respect the laws in which we fight abroad for.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:02 am
Dennis,
“Act my age?” Hmmm. I’ve got twenty years on you, but I’ll consider that if you consider being respectful of my wisdom of having studied the Constitution for forty plus years. For instance, you’re woefully ignorant about something that you need to correct to keep from becoming stupid. Ignorance is treatable but stupidity is a terminal condition. And being what you call “very conservative” is frightening! It is proof of all that’s been said above about the ills of our so called Republican Party which is as far from the truth as you can get, and THAT’s far from confirming what you have written earlier. And rather than merely saying so, I shall now prove the point. One more point, however. I’m not judging Guiliani because he’s outside the church. I’m judging you because you’re supposedly IN the church, 1Cor 5:12.
Apparently you believe Ron Paul’s stand on abortion is wrong because he won’t make a Constitutional Amendment for it.
My Friend, please, please, puhleeze get some wisdom and with your wisdom some understanding. In order to VOTE on such an amendment it would FIRST be necessary to scrap the 9th and 10th Amendments! Can you compute this? Anyone willing to VOTE on the issue with the 9th & 10th Amendments still in the Bill of Rights is an OATH BREAKER, LIAR and THIEF of the People’s Rights.
I’m not going into it here as to why State Rights are so important, but I will talk about Ron Paul’s “The Sanctity of Life Act of 2005.” Of course, you never heard of it, because the likes of our oath breaking “representatives” were busy enjoying their government paid junkets which Ron Paul has never taken. You can blame the mainstream media and the oath breakers for that, but now that you’re being told, you are going to morally have to come to grips with all you’re thinking and saying. You’re going to be required before Almighty God to give an answer for your behavior of willfully breaking the law as CRocket has pointed out above. You’re going to have to come to grips with a snobbish “don’t confuse me with any facts.” I’m sorry to be so blunt, but perhaps it will make you angry enough to prove me wrong, in which case (if you’re honest), you’re going to be converted. However, do you not know that ignorance of the Law is neither an excuse before men nor God!!! That Act that Ron Paul introduced was one of the most ingenious Acts ever put before the Congress. It would have made Roe vs. Wade of null effect, and that fairly rapidly. An honest man will recognize that an honest man presented that Act to correct the dishonesty which had gone before him.
It’s that dishonesty that you call “very conservative.” Sigh! Compare please with Rev 2:2. If you truly believe sin is the problem in our country, then please recognize that compromise is the sin currently in vogue. God detests it and will spew it’s lukewarmness out of His mouth. It threatens the Republic more than you know because you’re so used to the sickness as being “normal.”
You need to comprehend Matthew 7 and read beyond the first verse. The whole chapter is about how to judge righteously. If one cannot recognize the “hogs, dogs and wolves in sheep’s clothing,” he will not judge them as they must be judged in the here and now. Your salvation is at stake if you cannot judge righteously. So, I’m saying only that I’m an able fruit inspector when it comes to seeing these oath breakers as sinful. And it may not initially dawn upon you as to how important THAT message is to our Republic. Once those delegates are to give the votes they pledged, there is nothing to keep them from reneging when they find out they are voting for an oath breaker, and substitute their votes for the only candidate who has never broken his oath.
I’m encouraged that you’re reading the www.ronpaul2008.com/issues page, but one that may make it a bit more simple for you is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul
“States’ rights
“A number of Paul’s positions on civil liberties are based on states’ rights - that U.S. states possess certain rights and political powers in relation to the federal government. Amendment X reserves to the individual states, or the people, authority over all matters not expressly delegated to the federal government by the Constitution.”[17].
“[edit] Pro-life legislation
“Paul calls himself “strongly pro-life”[145] and “an unshakable foe of abortion”.[146] He believes regulation of medical decisions about maternal or fetal health is “best handled at the state level.”[147][148] He believes that, for the most part, states should retain jurisdiction, in accordance with the U.S. Constitution.
“Paul refers to his background as an obstetrician as being influential on his view, recalling a late-term abortion performed during his residency, “It was pretty dramatic for me to see a two-and-a-half-pound baby taken out crying and breathing and put in a bucket.”[149] During a May 15, 2007, appearance on the Fox News talk show Hannity and Colmes, Paul argued that his pro-life position was consistent with his libertarian values, asking, “If you can’t protect life then how can you protect liberty?” Furthermore, Paul argued in this appearance that since he believes libertarians support non-aggression, libertarians should oppose abortion because abortion is “an act of aggression” against a fetus, which he believes to be alive, human, and possessing legal rights.[citation needed]
“Paul has said that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion, stating that “the federal government has no authority whatsoever to involve itself in the abortion issue”.[150]
“Paul introduced The Sanctity of Life Act of 2005, a bill that would have defined human life to begin at conception, and removed challenges to prohibitions on abortion from federal court jurisdiction.[151] In 2005, Paul introduced the We the People Act, which would have removed “any claim based upon the right of privacy, including any such claim related to any issue of … reproduction” from the jurisdiction of federal courts. If made law, either of these acts would allow states to prohibit abortion.[113] In 2005, Paul voted against restricting interstate transport of minors to get abortions.[152]
“In order to “offset the effects of Roe v. Wade,” Paul voted in favor of the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. He has described partial birth abortion as a “barbaric procedure”. He also introduced H.R. 4379 that would prohibit the Supreme Court from ruling on issues relating to abortion, birth control, the definition of marriage and homosexuality and would cause the court’s precedents in these areas to no longer be binding.[153] He once said, “The best solution, of course, is not now available to us. That would be a Supreme Court that recognizes that for all criminal laws, the several states retain jurisdiction.”[154]”
Here, I’ve only dealt with the abortion issue, but you could take homosexual marriage next, etc, etc., etc. Don’t be so naive and truly judgmental about something you know so little about. Get some wisdom and with your wisdom, get some understanding, Prov 4:7.
In Christ,
Dan
February 11th, 2008 at 2:47 am
Dennis Quote: “You ask, which church leaders have caused me to repent.”
No, that’s not what I asked at all. With tongue in cheek, I asked which ones of THEM you had brought to the Lord. And I asked you to determine whether I was talking about homosexuals or oath breaking congress people. A rhetorical way of saying they are both guilty and both need a savior. But how many of them have you brought to the Lord? (Caution about asking me the same question. I do believe that he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.)
Dennis Quote: “You say that I am soft on homosexuality - how do you know that?! Because I don’t rail against them with hatred? Because I say that most, if not all of them, have been sinned against, and in their reaction to what happened to them - their own sin - they have chosen a path against God? Their sin is wrong in what they have chosen. Can I not be plainer? Should I be like the pharisees who sought to stone the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery, or should I seek to be like Jesus? What they are doing is wrong, and they do need to be confronted with that truth. Some need a rock hammer, some need a velvet hammer.”
See, Dennis, your statement is plainly guilty before the Lord. Yes, I can easily say so because of Christ’s message at Matt 12:33-35. It’s some more of the same nonsense that says you’re “very conservative.” My Brother In Christ (assuming you are or want to be), please listen to me. I know what you are by what you say. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, Matt 12:33-35 and what convicted the Pharisees also convicts us the same. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. You have been speaking and I’m required to judge it. If you would be willing to take instruction from God’s word, you would have to repent for saying what you have. You have turned the words upside down and backwards. You call Pharisees those who are not, and those who are Pharisees you call your friends, your elected officials your pastors and I don’t know what all.
So, even in your statement above defending your softness on homosexuality you are convicting yourself. What would you say to the idea of a dyed in the wool homosexual coming out of it within thirty days? Neither you nor the media will believe it and I’m NOT talking about some tongue talking Pentecostal experience either. Far from it. I’m talking about pure bible. I am talking about Truth and not compromise. God will spew the compromiser’s out of his mouth and the proof of it is right before your own eyes. You either buy the truth or lies. I am happy to prove where those addicted to homosexuality, drunkenness, etc., came out of it in fast time. If we do it the bible way, we’ll have the same results.
Dennis Quote: “I will allow your words to search me; will you allow mine to search you? If there is truth in what you write, I will stand corrected and turn from my ways. I will open my mind as that being a possibility. Will you do the same?”
That’s a reasonable sounding statement, but please hearken to the error of it. Please, Dennis, don’t get in a huff because you think I’m just trying to say the same thing “differently.” I am NOT saying the same thing at all. This again, is the error of thinking you’re conservative and non Pharisaical. I will not allow your words to search me nor should you allow mine to search you, but if you provide me with God’s word I most certainly WILL allow it to try me to search me and make me know who God is. I find my bible makes it far more important that he knows who I am than that I merely know who he is and he only knows those who love him — who keep his commandments. So, if you use the scripture, I listen carefully. If you use them wrongly I’ll try to encourage you to come to the right. The right does not come to us — except once, and we rejected him. We must now accept him. It is this last course that I would enjoy talking about more even than Ron Paul. For if we do not do this, then we will not have a home in heaven.
Last point: Did you take Don Wood’s “My Little American Test?”
http://digg.com/people/Hindu_invocation_in_Senate_disrupted_by_Christian_activists?t=7773953
In Christ,
Dan
February 13th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Heh, Don Wood’s “My Little American Test” is pretty effective at closing mouths.
February 13th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
dantrenner,
I did see “My Little American Test.” All of the answers were clear to me before I knew the answers. They did not silence me. Further, if I were I were to take your tack, I would ignore all you have said and just go to my Bible in terms of having my thinking and behavior changed, instead of reading and listening to what you have said, and seeing if what you are writing is truth. If you do not agree that I am conservative based on what I’ve written, then I need to improve my communcation and writing skills, as well as provide more information. However, I do not feel a need to defend myself to you or to try to convince you. Do I think homosexuality is sin? Absolutely. Can folks be freed instantly. Absolutely. Will some be freed progressively? Yes, they can repent of the sin and forsake it, yet still deal with desires that arise within them. That doesn’t mean they sin by acting on those desires. As the Lord by His Spirit transforms them, eventually those desires will diminish. I am not the one to determine the speed at which that occurs. So while I agree that the issue of repentance is absolutely necessary, in terms of transformation of that person, that is not instantaneous, in terms of their desires changing. It may occur for some that way, others it may not.
dantrenner, I cannot get you to open your mind. At points you appear close-minded, and that those who disagree with you are either in sin or ignorant or stupid. You can question my salvation, thankfully I do not answer to you or the several verses that you can pull out while discounting other verses. I believe I can glean from you what have written that you are in the Wesleyan/Arminian view, much of which I agree with as far as what I know of it, some of which I do not agree with.
In terms of an amendment to end abortion across America - I may not have the proper procedure of how that should occur, I grant you that. I am as not well versed in the Constitution as you are. For that, I am thankful for your years of study and your concern. I do believe this should be a national issue and not a states right issue, much the same as it was with slavery. Based on what you have said, would that have made the southern states in the right, because they saw slavery as a states’ right issue, and wished to continue it even though it was evil? Would Abraham Lincoln then have been usurping states’ rights in his actions, in proclaiming the slaves to be free?
Blessings,Dennis
February 13th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
dantrenner,
One clarification: when I stated that I do not have to answer to the verses you quoted, what I did not mean is that I should not follow these. I clearly believe I should.
Further, to judge me based on what I have written in a few sentences which are open to further clarification and searching, such as by asking: “do you believe homosexuality is a sin or not?”, is clearly wrong, without knowing me, and clearly goes against the context of 1 Cor 5 which is local-church based. The idea there is to expel the immoral brother within that local church. Logically, if I were in immorality, you could not expel me from that church as you are not in the same local church I am in. That would be job of the leaders in that church. If I were to take the same tack as you in this, then I would not associate with you, according to this passage, since I could argue that you have slandered Pat Robertson and Mike Huckabee. I would more say now, that instead of slandering them, you were being passionate in your arguments against them. I will ask you, were you slandering them by calling them these names? Were you attacking their character and them as people? Were you calling them out for their actions? “With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.” James 3:9,10. Are you not by your words against them cursing these men? Would you go in prayer before the Father and ask Him to help the moron Pat Robertson and bless the Huckster Mike Huckabee? Do you not know that whatever we do to the least of Jesus’ brothers, we are doing to him? Whatever we say to another, we are actually saying to Jesus - this convicts me! Everything we say is then a form of prayer. Have you not then called Jesus a moron, and Huckster? Is that not sin? I plead with you my brother, and I believe you are a brother, to watch your words. As Jesus said, we will be judged by our words. “Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ (an Aramaic term of contempt) is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in the danger of the fire of hell. Matt 5:22.
God bless you my brother,
Dennis
February 14th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Hi Dennis,
I’m glad you did so well with “My Little American Test.” Most of what comes to mind is “with conservativism like that the Republic doesn’t need any enemies.”
To answer your query, I am simply a Christian and a Christian only. My bible tells me that denominationalism is a sin, John 17, 1Cor 1:10, etc., and I repented of that more than twenty years ago. Here’s my story:
I thought I was a Christian since the age of ten. I certainly wanted to be a Christian and knew that I needed a savior. But I woke up at age forty two with a bank robber in my face, and learned from him — of all people — that I hadn’t yet “obeyed the gospel” and was actually still lost. I didn’t even know what that meant. I called myself a “pastor” also without knowing what was biblically required to be one even though I had been through bible college. But I was a Constitutional purist, and that (in a way), helped me to become a Christian.
I say “in a way” because I had done with my bible what most of us do. We “interpret it” with our own bias and never truly come to understand or obey it. I believed that the Constitution was “the supreme law of the land” and that we should not violate it in any way, just as I believed the bible to be the word of God and that we should “not add anything to it or take anything out, not turn to the left or the right, or go beyond what was written” Deu 4:2, 12:32, Joshua 1:8, Prov 30:5-6, 1Cor 1:10, 4:6, Rev 22:18-29. That converted bank robber was able to get my attention to God’s word, really for the first time in my life. Me! A pastor! I REPENTED and was added to the kingdom of God at forty two years of age.
Those two examples above, of being saved and being a pastor, should be reasons good enough for the thinker to really understand what all I’ve been saying on this board. But to take off only on one of them as an example, I would site Acts 2:38. It says that we need to be baptized FOR the remission of our sins in order TO receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. Theologians have pressed the word “for” (Gk: eis) into any shape required to make it mean anything other than what it says. One of the greatest of those was Baptist theologian A. T. Robertson. He took the Greek word “eis” and made it mean anything but “for remission of sins.” Yet in Matt 26:28 with _exactly_ the same Greek construction conjoined with the identical expression “for remission of sins” he was willing to say that it meant what it says. Tch, tch, tch, tch.
We do this because of our own denominational biases and therefore we disobey the commands from the earliest elements of salvation to the challenge of Revelation to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. We shouldn’t be surprised in the end if we’re not successful in either.
I reason that the church has done it spiritually and thus couldn’t understand it Constitutionally even though it hits them in the face. A man I talked to on the Internet said concerning Ron Paul’s point that we went to Iraq unconstitutionally, “We haven’t declared war since WW II” and asked, “how are we supposed to do it?” By this he was letting the oath breakers of all of Congress, the Democrats and Republicans alike, to get by with their violations to uphold the Constitution. (Rev 2:20). All I could say to him was like I’m saying on this board, “The Constitution gave the job to Congress, and they should be able to figure out how to make a declaration of war.”
Put “coin lawful money” or whatever other issue Ron Paul has made his platform and it should give a small inkling as to just how out of touch we are with the Constitution.
Dennis, when I used to say things like this to my family and friends, years ago, they would treat me well, but only humor me concerning my political statements. Not long after 9-11 every one of them, to the man of them, admitted I had been right. But when I BEGGED them to write their elected congress people to at least debate the so called P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act in Congress, I’m not sure ANY of them did. When it passed, I wrote them all off and determined I would never return to the United States. Finally, LOTS of people were talking like I used to, and all I could do was shake my head and say, “too little too late.” But then Ron Paul announced his candidacy and I told my adult son “how great it would be if only….” (His given name is Liberty, by the way.)
I am amazed, like Ron Paul, how far his message has come. And even more amazed that all my friends and relatives, including a bitter old ex wife, and HER family have come around to vote for Ron Paul in the primaries. And it has finally dawned on me, as it might be coming to you, that WE NEED to be converted if we are to save our country. “And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven,” Matt 18:3.
So, Dennis, My Friend, I’m not going to argue States Rights with you or any of the other matters. I was never Wesleyan or Armenian or Baptist. Another denomination. Anyway, I’m converted now, and Matthew 7 says I’m to know who the hogs, dogs and wolves in sheep’s clothing are. So, I’m going to put my hand to doing what just might save the Union. I’m sorry it looks like you won’t be joining me. But far from excluding you, let me give you a hint about the potential glory to come in America. And don’t let this surprise you: You will not hear Ron Paul talking about this. Only hints. I’ll give you a link below. This will only come from his supporters, just like the money bombs came from his supporters. And after all, it requires what I’m about to share with you for any change to become CONVERSION. At this point, anything could happen _if we repent._ Ron Paul could run with Dennis Kucinich to be his VP. Now THAT would mess ‘em up wouldn’t it!?
BUT there’s a lot more agreement between those two than disagreement, and like Ron Paul, Democrat Dennis wasn’t given hardly any press at all.
Having served as a delegate in my past, I can tell you that when you reach the Convention floor, you do not HAVE to vote for the person you have been selected to vote for, but you can revolt, out of conscience sake and vote your conscious for one who is not an oath breaker. When many of those delegates are approached with the inescapable proof that their horse is an oath breaker and the unconstitutional condition of our government and country, and asked whether they will uphold the Constitution as a red blooded American, we may yet see Ron Paul in the White House. It will all just depend on how many “VmeriKans” (Don Wood) we can convert into Americans.
Of course, this requires a conversion of the type that is mentioned above from the bible. The same kind of conversion that takes the likes of myself, A “PASTOR” (!), to make after he is shown the word of God to which he REPENTS. I’m looking forward to a delegate revolt because at no time in history has there been such a need for one or such a man whose hands are not stained with the blood of broken oaths. THAT is the only man who SHOULD CONSTITUTIONALLY be president, but it will all only come down to whether “…the people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and TURN from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land, 2Ch 7:14. God will heal no land whose people do not turn from their wicked ways which brought them their wicked state.
So, we shall see. And now you know how busy I am, because I am having to do this from India instead of on the soil of my birth. If my countrymen do not turn this around, I must forget them. One last thought. Just as the bad coinage chased out the silver coins we had in circulation in the 70’s (junk silver), the bad laws and corrupt institutions also have chased the real patriots out of America. I found sooo many of them overseas after I finally could take no more. So, the law which says, “the bad chases the good away” is found in my experience to be an irrefutable law. There’s got to be a change, Dennis, and that change begins at home in the heart. It would be nice to have you on board.
Finally, If you listen to Ron on this video, keep listening to the number of times he mentions the Convention. “Keep Going” he says. “Stay engaged, and don’t think this is all over!” “We’re at a point that we have to do something major.” He’s still talking about new people coming in, and new money coming in, etc. “Were on the right track,” he says. (If the delegates find out the guy they support is an oath breaker they’re free to change their vote for Ron Paul right on the convention floor.) “Some real changes are forthcoming.” He says, “Surprises do occur!” “We do have the answer!” He talks about how his fellow Republicans resemble Democrats. Etc.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMliyeIDp4
God bless,
Dan
February 15th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
dantrenner,
Wow! Thanks for your excellent post and for sharing your testimony - very worthy of further re-reading. I will look at it again in more detail.
I agree with you on the convention issue. Last night McCain was on Larry King, and King asked him a simple question, and in doing it he was not trying to provoke McCain, i.e., push his buttons. McCain, who has been said to have a hair-trigger temper, nearly lit into him. I was quite surprised. I do not think that I can vote for that man and really do not see him as being fit for office. It’s sad.
Blessings, and thanks again.
Dennis
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:38 am
check this out…
this is mine…
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