Riding the “eth” of God
July 1st, 2009 | Michael Q. Pink
“The battle is not to the strong… But time and chance happen to all” (Ecc 9:11
I have an excuse. I was young and very inexperienced at life. I was in Hawaii in the ‘70’s for a break when a hurricane formed offshore making the waves very big. It looked like fun to me and a few others so into the waves we went. Each incoming wave would tower above us and we would dive into the belly of the wave to avoid getting crushed by it.
What I didn’t yet know about was the phenomena known as a “riptide”. After the wave would go over me, I would get sucked out deeper into the water. I thought it was fun for awhile but then I realized how far out I was and that folks on shore could no longer even identify me. When I tried to swim in, I was still going backwards faster than I was going forward. The force was too strong. I was being sucked out to sea.
I cried out to the Lord and He did deliver me, but He used a series of smaller successive waves that I could ride in to shore. The wave is like the “eth” of God. It overcomes the strength of whatever opposes us. When you ride the “eth” you can beat the odds, gain the victory and overcome even a “riptide”. Be on the lookout today for your “eth”. It will help you overcome the riptides in life.
In case you feel like you missed your “eth”, I have good news for you. There is always another one. Just like one wave is followed by another, so are the “eths” of God. It won’t be the same, but it is sent for your good. Ride the “eth” of God today. It will take you further than you could ever go on your own strength.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:10 am
Yeah and Amen, One of your best
Greg
July 1st, 2009 at 10:11 am
Other than focusing on WHAT HE would have me to learn over a missed “eth” I, like Paul try to look forward, not behind. It is sometimes challenging as satan seeks to keep us looking at our deficits, and when we do, we trip/or miss, more “eths.” I like to think on hymns/praise songs, and say, “turn your eyes upon JESUS, look full in HIS wonderful face…” When we do this we miss less “eths.” Thanks MP! Stay in HIS presence and continue to share! In HIM, Kara
July 1st, 2009 at 10:38 am
Michael,
I marvel at how active and fertile your imagination is that you can imagine that the eths of God come to each of us as waves that can be ridden as a surfer rides the surf waves.
In your story, I see that God delivered you from your natural youthful frivolous carnal (self-centered) way of thinking that cast aside any discretion that the evil of riptides lurked in the fun of diving into the huge waves as they passed over you. I would ask why did God deliver you when other indiscrete young people have died as a consequence of their dare-devil youthful indiscretions whether it was diving ino a mighty wave or joyriding in an auotmobile. Quite obviously, the answer lies in understanding God’ s will and plan for your life in comparison and contrast with God’ s different will and plan for the lives of those young people who were not dilivered as you were.
I think we all have had dare-devil attitudes but in vastly different ways and circumstances. I have never had any inkling or desire to ride waves or to joyride in an automobile or to climb mountains or to contend face to face with the wild. But I have been a dare-devil in the area of desiring to experience war (Vietnam) and in the area of the seemy side of sexuality. Though these experiences (suffrings) I have lived to tell about them and thereby have learned obedience to God and his righteous thoughts and ways. I have come to realize that my sufferings were for me alone to learn obedience and I have been unable to use my sufferings to teach my son obedience to either me or to God. God has shown me he must experience his own sufferings that are unique for him. As much as we might want to guide and direct others, we cannot unless God has instructed us to do so and how to do it. This truth is born out in the song Elvis used to sing, “You ‘ve got to walk the lonesome valley, you have to walk it by yourself, nobody else can walk it for you, you must walk it by yourself.”
I have learned that in all things God will get the glory and his glory will fill the earth. And as this happens we and all his creation will be blessed and glorified. Amen
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 1st, 2009 at 10:38 am
HI MIKE, GREETINGS AND BEST WISHES TO YOU PAL. YOU ARE GETTING BETTER EVERYDAY. YOUR MESSAGES ARE VERY POWERFUL MY FRIEND.
THEY ARE LIKE WINE FELLA. THEY GET BETTER AND BETTER WITH AGE.
THANKS FOR THE SERIES ON THE “ETH” PAL. GOD BLESS YOU MIKE.
July 1st, 2009 at 10:55 am
Wow,
This “eth” topic is screaming to me! Thanks!!
July 1st, 2009 at 11:33 am
I fine myself sometimes ignoring because of busy-ness, my quiet early morning times with my God, I try not to let that happen because it is in those morning times that I get direction and also I have found out that even if I dont get what I feel is a clear direction, it heightens my spiritual senses to where I can be more aware of the “eths” throughtout my day.
Thanks Mike, God Bless
July 1st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
WOW! What an analogy! Thanks that was a “kiss” from my King.
July 1st, 2009 at 10:45 pm
I have recently have been getting sunamis of negative riptides,and with the busy lives that we all live I have been ignoring the small waves sometime must take death breath and slow down and let the small waves(the work of god) bring one back to shore. Or should I say back on track. We all have faith,but sometime one thinks why me….or I am one of millions with same situation. But you must just keep positive and believe!!and it will turn your way for the better. And one must learn from the hardship journey. That how I am looking at it from now on.
July 1st, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Sorry guys that I can’t type with my thumbs. I am using my sons apple itouch.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:12 am
In the late 1970s I made some choices that led to me getting into a terrible mess. I thought at the time that the one that actually tied me into a difficult situation was made because God used someone to tell me to do it. My tutor who was a Christian was overtaken by the Holy Spirit and talked me through these bad choices led me to repentance for them and then said what I should do. I remembered the sadness that accompanied that advice but as it suited me to do it anyway I followed it.
It took me until 2005 to finally cry out for release. In between times I was hit by one negative wave after another. I tried swimming in my strength. I had to hold on tight to the lifebelts that came from heaven so I could survive.
Like Michael I did not realise how much danger I was in at the time. I look back and see what a serious situation I have come through. I now see warning signs that I missed. I stayed in it because I believed that that was what God wanted for me. For many years I survived by saying when I have got out of this situation in the way that I want then my dreams will come to pass. In the end he did rescue me but only when I asked him to change my situation in the way that He wanted.
Even with the Lord beside me and taking me gently through the escape process it was still painful but I have survived. I have learnt a lot in the last 30 years. Now I want to be able to use that experience in the Lord’s service.
I look back and now see the reason why I was advised to take that course of action and why there was a definite note of sadness when I was given it.
I look forwards and am desperate to follow God and do things His way.
Susan
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:27 am
Brother,
You are such a blessing!
Enjoying hearing about the eth of God so much!
Blessings to you and your family from Australia.
July 7th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Michael,
I have noticed on TV, that Bishop Mark Chironna now has a teaching about the times and seasons of God similar to your teachings on the “eths’ of God that he is marketing for $100. To sell this teaching he appeals to people’ s self-interest in how to get their miracle from God as if we can incur the favor of God by recognizing his times and seasons and adjusting our will and life to be in conformity with his will that may be determined by knowing his times and seasons or his “eths”.
But this whole idea seems to be leaning toward the satanic idea that there is something man can and must do to merit God’ s favor, grace and mercy.
But God freely gives us his favor, grace and mercy simply because we are his children, even though we may be ignorant of his times and seasons and often don’ t know what we are doing. He laughs at our ignorance that brings on our calamities. But it has been his plan all along to bless us regrdless of our ignorance and regardles of what we may think, do or believe. Jesus told us it is God’ s good pleasure to give us his kingdom. This is not like a gift that we must make a decision to receive so that we have the gift. God’ s gift of eternal life in his kingdom is all part of his master plan for mankind and his creation on earth. And therefore, because it is part of his plan, we have it. We need not make a cognitive decision to receive it nor can we decide to reject God’ s gift of eternal life in his kingdom on earth. If we chose to commit suicide, he will resurrect us until we understand it is his will that we live and enjoy the blessings he has prepared for us in his kingdom on earth. In God’ s plan we may suffer loss and we may be miserable but only for a temporary season through which we learn to obey him and share in his righeousness just as Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered. According to God’ s plan, in the end, we all overcome the devil and his influences in our lives just as Jesus did.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 7th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Isn’t it funny how the TV preachers prey upon those people who fail to have a relationship with the MASTER HIMSELF. They perish from a lack of knowledge, with no ability to divide the truth from lies, as it happened in the garden. Mix a little doggie doo in your brownies and I “aint” gonna eat ‘em. Blessings David Thompson!
July 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
To Kara,
Good and very funny brownie analogy. It seems you have the knowledge of God and his eternal purpose for his creation. I believe Bishop Mark Chironna also has this same knowledge but somehow he still can fall back into the ways of the selfish world that we all are so familiar with. I like what William Wordsworth, the English poet, said about this, “The world is too much with us, getting and spending.”
One might ask, “What’ s wrong with getting and spending?” I think Wordsworth knew the difference that getting and spending from a selfish perspective is the way the Pagans do it. But Jesus taught us to not be like the Pagans because God already knew what we wanted and needed. He taught us to seek first God’ s kingdom and his righteousness and then we would get all our needs and wants met.
kingdom blessings to you Kara and to all,
David Thompson
July 9th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
David Thompson says “…nor can we decide to reject God’ s gift of eternal life in his kingdom on earth.”
Jesus said in John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.”
July 9th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
To Michael B.
You seem to be implying that what I wrote is a contradiction of what Jesus said in John 12:48. But it is not a contradiction. It is a work of the devil that would cause anyone to reject Jesus and to not receive his sayings. 1John 3:8 says Jesus was manifested to destroy these works of the devil. And I know he is carying out his misssion. Don’ t you know this?
St. Paul writes in 1Timothy 2:4 that it is “God’ s will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” we can be sure that God’ s will will be accomplished otherwise God is not omnipotent or omniscient.
Many Christians have been deluded into believing that God has given makind a freewill that he will not violate. But that can not be true in light of other scriptures such as Ezekiel 36:26-28 that clearly indicate that God will give men new hearts and place his spirit in them , and cause them to walk in his statutes to do them. My sister complains that this would make man into robots for God. And my response is I would rather be a robot for the Lord than a slave to sin. But I know that God will not leave anyone as slaves to sin. In his plan we all will be c nformed to the image and stature of Christ Jesus whether we like it or not. And he will ensure that we like it. Amen.
David Thompson
July 10th, 2009 at 8:26 am
The totality of scripture does not support universal salvation for all men regardless of their actions. I believe this doctrine is a doctrine of the devil.
I Thess 4:3 says that it is God’s will that we abstain from sexual immorality. Yet there are many that don’t. God is still ominpotent and omniscient.
I Thess 5:18 says that in everything give thanks for this is the will of God. Yet we don’t always thank God in fact sometimes we blame him.
I John 2:17 says “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” Which by implication means if you don’t do the will of God you will not abide forever.
The owner of this blog has stated that he doesn’t support universalism. I am compelled to speak out against this heresy. I just wish it wasn’t occuring in this blog.
July 10th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
To Miachael B.
The totality of scripture reveals God’ s will and purpose for mankind and his creation on earth. From scripture and from direct revelation we know that God’ s purpose is to establish and maintain his kingdom on earth as it is heaven. We know that God created mankind to have dominion over his creation. The fact that Satan has usurped man’ s God-given dominion is also a part of God’ s plan and purpose. God carries out his will and piurpose though his processes of his ordained times and seasons.
From Romans 8:28-30, we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This is God’ s perfect will and purpose for all mankind, to be conformed to the image of his Son. God created Satan to assist in this conforming process to temper and test mankind like iron is pounded, tempered and tested to strengthen it. Jesus told Peter that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat but Jesus said he would pray for Peter and after he was converted (through Satan’ s sifting to God’ s perfecting) Jesus told him to strenghten his brethren.
Another analogy of how God perfects mankind and conforms us into the image of Christ is as a gold refiner refines and perfects a gold bar. The refiner puts the tarnished gold bar into the fire until he can see his reflection in the gold. The he removes the purified gold bar from the fire. When God’ s puts is into his cleansing fire, he allows the seed of satan ot burn off until god can see his seed , Christ, in us. The Bible is replete with such analogies that depict how God matures, cleanses and perfects mankind so we are fit and able to take dominion over God’ s kingdom on earth.
The very judgment of God is a cleansing process in which the devil and his influences are cast out of the consciousness of mankind. This is reflected in the words of Jesus recorded in John 12:31-31, “Now is the judgment of the world. Now is the prince of this world cast out. And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men unto me. ” When the devil is cast out, he will no longer to able to cause unbelief in people and prevent them from coming to Christ. For as in Adam ALL men die, even so in Christ shall ALL men be made alive. (1Cor. 15:22) 1Timothy 2:4 says it is God’ s will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. This is the truth of universal salvation that is most definitely NOT a doctrine of the devil.
But if Michael Pink does not support what the Bible says clearly says about universal salvation then let him say so. And let him tell me to go fly a kite and stop promoting the truth of universal salvation on his blog site.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 11th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Jesus’ s message, “Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand” IS Father God’ s message of universal salvation for all the earth. It is far from being a message only of personal salvation for all human beings as most Christians selfishly and exclusively believe. It is the “good news” that Father God is slavaging his entire creation from the clutches of the devil and thereby restoring his righteous kingdom on the earth. Romans 8:20 takes up this theme of what God is doing on earth saying, “For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLIGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. For the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and traileth inpain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. for we are saved by hope.”
These verses clearly say, we and all creation were all subjected to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY.
In other words we did not choose to be subjected to vanity. Likewise, John 1:13, says we did not choose by the will of our flesh to be born of God. Yet we all are born of God created in his own image, which is the DNA pattern of Christ.
Any doctrine that says that our personal salvation is a matter of our fleshy will (or choice) does not comport with these scriptures and is not the doctrine of God!
For the first five centuries of Christendom, most all the church understood this and believed what Jesus said that The salvation of God is impossible with with man, but with God all things are possible. But after the fifth century, seducing spirits and doctrines of devils entered the minds of church Fathers and they began to teach the erroneous doctrines that are taught today in the church. The most hideous of these erroneous doctrines is the doctrine that says man can choose his eternal destiny in either heaven or hell. A recently published book, “The Jerome conspiracy” reveals this whole story. Another recenlty published book, “God’ s plan for all” cronicles God’ s plan of universal salvation fo all.
These books reflect how God is now at workreconciling the iniquitous doctrines of the church that have led so many people astray into believing the lie that an unbelieving loved one is now rotting in hell forever.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
Davd Thompson
July 11th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Before this Michael B jumps my case, I am willing to see we do not know it all, David, but have you read “Hope Beyond Hell?” I am currently reading it, and it is STEEPED in HIS Word. So, my former belief of repent or go to hell, is now challenged with the scriptures and the FATHER of all of us, our Creator is NOT the biggest loser, satan is. Too often we believe what we have been taught by others. We need to be ready to be a Berean, and leave the doctrines of men, looking for HIS truth. I have wearied of an arrogant “church” that continues to teach Augustinian theory and miss the WORD. Bless you all in HIS peace!
July 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone in my defense against what I consider to be wrong in universal salvation. I HOPE I am wrong. I certainly am not claiming any corner on the truth because I only know in part. However, being an Acts 17:11 fan, it is necessary to study these things out. I have been challenged by David Thompson’s views because his was my introduction to universalism. His essays have resulted in a lot of late nights. I personally have arrived back at the place where I have a conviction about my belief on salvation.
Jonathan Hunt had this to say about Gerry Beauchemin’s “Hope Beyond Hell?”
“Mr Beauchemin starts the section of his book ‘pillars’ with the word Aion. He focuses on Matthew 25.46. He admits that if it means what it says, his entire thesis is dead. However, he propounds the view that the entire Christian world since the year dot has been wrong and that all the greek scholars who translated the Bible were also wrong.
Of course, the word used in Matt 25.46 is not Aion (which indeed means fixed age) but Aionos. This adjective means ‘eternal’, whatever the book claims. Second, you don’t get the meaning of a word by doing a word study of some other word in some other language that sometimes gets translated by your word. That’s absurd. Third, many of the examples he gives of olam are verses where aionos is not used to translate olam in the LXX. Jonah 1:17, for example. Fourth, meaning is derived from context. Clearly, in context, the punishment of the wicked lasts as long as the righteous have life since the adjective aionos is the same for both. If we did have the option of translating the verse “And these will go away into punishment of limited duration, but the righteous into a life of limited duration,” which translation would make the most sense in context?
His contention that the adjective Aionos, as derived from Aion, the noun, must always have the same meaning as it, is derived from Edward Beecher, whoever he was.
It’s an old word study fallacy called the root fallacy. Beecher, whoever he is, is guilty of it. It’s a frequent error among the old exegetes. A common example is the outworn idea that apostolos means “one who is sent” because it is derived from apostello, meaning “to send.” To get at the meaning of aionios in Mt 25:46, you simply need to access a decent lexicon and consider the context of the verse. That’s all. And there’s certainly no need to examine the Hebrew word olam in 2 Chronicles to discover the real meaning of aionios in Mt 25:46. The translators of the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, NRSV, NLT, and ESV are neither ignorant when they render the word “eternal,” nor are they engaged in some grand conspiracy. The guy who thinks he knows better than all of them and better than Bauer’s lexicon is either the most brilliant man alive or he is a fool. And I’ll leave you to guess which one I think he is.”
July 11th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
To Kara,
Thank you for your response. I have not read “Hope Beyond Hell” but I want to read it and I will. It very good that others, like yourself, participate in this discussion of God’ s will and his times and seasons. You are so right that Satan is the biggest loser in God’ s plan and purpose for his creation on earth. God and all humans and his whole creation win. I believe the Bible teaches that God’ s purpose for Satan is temporary for the training and conditioning of mankind and that after Satan fulfills God’ s purpose for him, he is programmed to self destruct when he is exposed in the light of God’ s truth in Jesus, who is the truth, the way and the life. All true Bereans, like yourself, who search the scripture to find out the truth of God’ s prophetic revelations will likely also be wearied as you are with an arrogant church that sefishly and exclusively think that their beliefs and doctrines are correct while others are incorrect and will condemn those unbelievers to torment in hell forever. Thank God he does not base our salvation on what people may believe or disbelieve. Because as you have said “we do not know it all.” so our beliefs are based upon incomplete and faulty information. God is just and merciful and he does not condemn any human because of their ignorance and lack of knowledge. Instead, Jesus prayed, hanging on the cross, that Father God forgive his accusers because of their ignorance that kept them from knowing what they were doing. God forgives us all for our ignorance and lack of knowledge even after he has told us time and time again how he wants us to live and behave. God knows the power he has given to the devil and the power he has given to us as his children to overcome the devil and all his influences.
The story of Job reveals that God controls and limits the devil and his works. God told the devil he could use his tricks and ploys to try to get Job to curse God but that he could not take his life. It is fairly evident in the rest of Job’ s story that the work of God in Job’ s heart and mind to conform him to the image of his Son, Jesus Christ, was far enough completed so that Job had actually developed the mind of Christ. So he could say in faith after all his afflictions, “The Lord has given and Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord!” Job was resolute in not blaming God even after his wife told him he should curse God and die.
As we all come to understand God’ s mind and his will and purpose for mankind on earth, we will see there is no provision in the mind of God for any of his children to be tormented in hell forever. God’ s will and purpose is to conform us all to the image and stature of Christ. This work of God in us is not limited to our temporal lives. For many it will continue on in the resurrection for those who are resurrected to judgment (condemnation). In the resurrection judgment, works will be judged whether good or bad. There are bad works that were influnced by Satan. They will be removed along with Satan and all his influences so that God’ s work of conforming that person to the image of Christ Jesus will be completed. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father (on earth) as Jesus said in Matt 13:43. Only the devil and his influences wind up in the lake of fire. The devil and his influences were not written in the book of life as all of God’ s children are. Therefore, when Rev. 20:15 says, “And whosever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” it is referring only to the devil and his influences who were never written in the book of life–and for whom the lake of fire was prepared by God. It is very clear he did not prepare the lake of fire for his children even though we will all be tried as if it were by fire.
I bet you never heard that before!
Church leaders will never tell you this truth because they want to keep people under their control by scaring them with their ungodly doctrines of eternal torment in hell for those who would stand up to them and tell them, as Jesus told the saducees, you do err, not knowing scripture.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 12th, 2009 at 12:45 am
The most awesome thing about fellow believers is that we can reason together and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into all understanding. We can agree that right now we all see through a glass darkly, but the day will come when all truth will be revealed.
I looked up Matt. 25:46
(KJS) And these shall go away (5695) into everlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternal .
And then looked to see if was always translated “eternal.”
I found Roma 16:25:
(KJS) Now to him that is of power (5740) to stablish (5658) you according to my gospel , and the preaching of Jesus Christ , according to the revelation of the mystery , which was kept secret (5772) since the world began ,
and also 2Tim 1:9
(KJS) Who hath saved (5660) us , and called (5660) [us] with an holy calling , not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace , which was given (5685) us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,
So it doesn’t always have to mean eternal. My Bible software program includes the Young’s Literal translation so I checked it out.
Matt 25:46 (YLT) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
All of this really does not relate to the original blog posted by Michael but I have been blessed by the interaction of His saints. And I will continue to pursue this study on my own. Thanks for sharing.
July 12th, 2009 at 1:03 am
In the post above, the Strong’s numbers did not transfer over properly from my software. The words everlasting and eternal in Matt 25:46 are both #166 in Strongs. The words that are translated “world began” in Rom 16:25 and 2 Tim 1:9 are derived from #5550 and #166.
BDB/Thayers # 5550
5550 chronos {khron’-os}
of uncertain derivation; TDNT - 9:581,1337; n m
AV - time 33, season 4, while 2, a while 2, space 2,
oftentimes + 4183 1, not tr 5, misc 4; 53
1) time either long or short
BDB/Thayers # 166
166 aionios {ahee-o’-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
July 12th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Karen, check out http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/aionios.html. In the article the author explains the Hebrew concept of time. “God’s plan, in the Hebrew mind, consisted that man participated in two great ages. One age was this temporal in nature, the other great age was the age to come.”
“Ultimately the sum of the temporal age was finite, and the sum of the age to come was infinite, which is to say, everlasting. Hence, the rendering of “ages of ages” while technically correct, completely fails to convey the meaning to the western reader. Therefore, to render the English as “for ever and ever” is correct, because this does explain the idea of the passage.”
Are there any Messianic Jews on this blog that could verify the Hebrew concept of time? Anybody know a rabbi?
Question:. What happens if universalism is wrong?
Answer. There are some people who will spend an eternity in hell because univeralists say you don’t have to repent to see the Kingdom of God.
Question. What happens if the belief system of salvation through grace by repenting and believing before earthly death is wrong?
Answer. Some will change their earthly habits to conform to Christ. Those who reject it will be saved anyway.
Are there any messianic Jews on this blog who could
July 12th, 2009 at 10:17 am
To Kathy Furman,
Thank you for your input to this very important discussion. Your word study is very helpful.
But I would have you know that disagreements over interpretation of scripture lie not only in misunderstanding word meanings, they can also lie in misunderstanding the many metaphors, analogies, types, etc. that are found in scripture. For example, in Matthew 25:46, the metaphor of the separation of sheep and goats is misinterpreted by many to mean the seaparation of good and bad people. But I have learned through much study (which King Solomon says is weariness of the flesh) and consultation with the Holy Spirit, that in Matt. 25:46, sheep and goats do not represent people but rather they represent the seed of God and the seed of Satan that exist in every human being’ s mind and influence people to do either good or evil works. !John chapter 3 distinguishes between these two seeds saying in verses 8-10 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works (sin) of the devil. Whosoever is born of God (the seed of God) does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil.
It has become very clear to me that modern church teachers who teach the hideous doctrine of eternal hell for unbleivers have not understood what St. John writes about the metaphor of the two seeds (or DNA’s) that are in all human beings. In their imaginations that exalt itself against the knowledge of God and his truth (See 2Cor. 10:5), they do err, not knowing or understanding scripture. And they have led many of God’ s sheep astray into an unnecessary grief that their deceased unbelieving loved ones are now rotting in torment in the fires of hell forever. But amazingly most of these proponents of this hideous doctrine find it repugnant. I was very happy to see Michael B. write that, “He HOPES he is wrong.” and I can assure you he is quite wrong in his belief that unbelievers will wind up in hell forever. I hope everyone who reads this will now understand that whenever the Bible speaks of “unbelievers”, “those who work iniquity” “”the false prophet” or other personifications of what seem to be human beings, it is speaking about the seed (or virus) of Satan that, in God’ s masterful plan will be finally separated and removed from the consciousness of all mankind in the great white thrown judgment that is metaphorically and spiritually depicted in Revelation chapter 20. We all must remember that when many of those who followed Jesus stopped following him because of his mysterious and hard to understand words, “Except you eat my flesh and drink my blood you cannot be my disciple, Jesus told his remaining disciples, the words I speak unto you, They are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE. John 6:63.
When Father God, who Jesus said is Spirit, looks upon the world of humanity, he spiritually sees his spirit (his seed) and the seed of the devil at work in the consciousness of mankind. Father God’ s judgment of the world reveals for mankind to see, the distinction between the operation of his seed and Satan’s seed. In the completion of God’ s great mystery as mentioned in Rev. 10:7, God’ s angels separate the tares, the works of the devil, from the fruit produced from God’ s seed, love, joy, peace (the fruits of God’ s kingdom). See Jesus’ s interpretation of his parable of the wheat and tares. (See Matt. 13:37-43)
God revealed his mysteries mostly to St. Paul who wrote extensively about God’ s mysteries in his many epistles to the early church. But St. Peter said Paul’ s writings were hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (See 2Peter 3:16) But the destruction St. Peter is talking about is not destruction forever in hell, it is the destruction one experiences in their appointment with death that may come earlier than expected. This is what St. Paul is talking about when he wrote in 1Cor. 5:5 “To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” These words reflect that the man’ s spirit will be saved, even though he had grieviously sinned under the influence of Satan and had not repented.
In conclusion, I must say when a person has received the knowledge of the truth as I have, thay no longer see through a glass darkly but rather we see God face to face as Moses did and we know even as we also are known. This is not ego bragging. It is the truth and God gets the glory. So please don’ t thank me or praise me for revealing the truth that God has so graciously revealed to me. Thank God and praise him and give him all the glory. Amen
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 12th, 2009 at 10:41 am
To Michael B.
The questions you pose are absurd in light of the truth and the knowledge of God’ s will and purpose to conform all his children to the image and stature of his Son Jesus Christ. He will not suffer any of his holy ones to suffer destruction in hell forever.
You need to cast your erroneous imaginations down and bring all your thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. If this offends your pride, it should because your pride is of the devil and causes you to think in opposition to the knowledge of God and his truth.
David Thompson
July 12th, 2009 at 10:58 am
WOW David if I hear pride in anyone it’s you. I’m sorry but I hear humility in Michael B willing to be wrong and wanting the truth.
This is a difficult subject and I can hear both sides. But, David if you are correct then we are simply robots and not people with choices. Relationships are about choices — otherwise God would have created “stepford wives.”
July 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
To Regina,
As you know, a robot is a thing created by man that is programmed by its human creator to do what its human creator designed it to do. I do not think robots can be programmed with inate knowledge or ability to design, program and control itself idependently. This is basically true of man also. But the difference between man and a robot is that God has created man in his own image to be an extension of himself to think and act as God acts. But the Bible reveals that in the garden of Eden, God ordained that the satanic serpent impart in Eve and Adam a way thinking and acting that is self-oriented and not in accordance with the image (Christ) in which God created mankind. This way of thinking is called “carnal mindedness” Romans 8:6 says, “To be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” From this we should see and understand that Adam and Eve died “carnally” in the day they ate from the forbidden tree.
In view of this satanically induced change in man’s thinking, God speaks through his prophet saying in Isaiah 55:9, “For my thoughs are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, saith the Lord.
The rest of the story in the Bible is that God, himself, will renew
mankind’ s mind and heart and restore his thinking and his ways into
man’ s heart and mind. This truth is born out in Ezekiel 36:26-27 that says, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
I like the the sound of this, that God, himself, will CAUSE us to walk in his statutes. If this sounds like we will be robots then so be it. I don’ t mind at all that God will CAUSE me to walk in his statutes because I know I do not have enough knowledge and expertice to be able to walk in his statutes leaning toward my own faulty understanding. I need God’ s programming and revelation in my life daily as I know we all do. When St. Paul writes that he dies daily he saying he dies daily to his old carnal nature’s way of thinking as he lives daily by the knowledge of Christ the Son of God in him.
The essence of humilty is that we submit ourselves to God’ s thinking and ways so he will lift us up to do his will. Submitting our selfish selves to one another may be like the blind leading the blind. We will all fall into the ditch of satan’ s deception.
If I was to admit that I did not know the truth, I would be lying. If you think that is “pride” then you do not know what true “pride” is. Most of the pride I see manifested in mankind is of the devil. Such pride is the root cause of all sin and error. Such pride is like a computer virus that enters a computer’ s operating system and causes it to malfunction (or sin). In the human body, a virus that causes disease in the body is not a living organism like bacteria and other life forms that have respiration and metabalism. Such viruses are similar to the seed and influences of satan that also do not have life and are therefore not written in the Lamb’ s book of life as all human being’ s names are written. In God’ s judgment only those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Since all humans have been written into the bokk of life, only Satan and his viruses (influences) that are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire in God’ s judgment.
With respect to the harsh words I used in my last email to Michael. B. that some may not think represented Christian charity, I would say that the outworking of Christian charity as I see it demonstrated in Christ Jesus, is to edify the God seed in mankind and to resist and tear town the selfish satanic seed. Jesus gave no mercy or deference to the selfish satanic seed that he saw in the Jewish religious leaders. He was not polite with them. He called them (the satainc seed in them), whited tombs and children of the devil. And I am sure the seed of Satan in the Jewish leaders backbited and accused Jesus of being “proud” and a great sinner because he claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of the living God. God sent Jesus to earth to be the first born of many sons and daughters. And I am sure that you, Regina, and I and also Michael B. and all readers of this blog and all mankind are part of this elect group. I believe God’ s elect in Romans 8:33, is speaking about all mankind as opposed to beasts and other creatures of God.
As God’ s elect, we should all be one with the Father as Jesus is and prayed we would be.
I know this will eventually be the case with all mankind who will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Amen
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 12th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
David bless your heart. I think the one thing I can agree with you on is that only “HE” can change us. Only HE can take out our stony heart and put a new heart within us. We cannot do anything with Him. But I believe we need to make the choice to have Him do within us what He wants done. I don’t believe He will overpower all of us (although if He chose He certainly can) without our desire and change us into what He desires us to be.
Those are my beliefs and my heart.
July 12th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Time and chance happen. The original post was about being encouraged that there is another chance to ride the “eth” of God. That is until your time runs out. According to the universalist theology all will be saved regardless of what they do during their earthly life. Their will ALWAYS be a second chance. I think this discussion is directly in line with this post. Do we get a second chance or not after our mortal body dies. I believe it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
Jesus clearly states in Math 25:32 that NATIONS will be gathered before HIM in judgment and he will seperate them into two groups. Using a metaphor he likens righteous NATIONS to sheep and unrighteous NATIONS to goats. These are the same NATIONS he charges His believers to go and disciple. There is no ambiguity here. Extra biblical revelation that Jesus really meant to say ” they represent the seed of God and the seed of Satan that exist in every human being’ s mind and influence people to do either good or evil works.” must be rejected. In Math 25:41 Jesus says the accursed nations will be cast into the eternal fire.
In Math 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He explicitly says that the good seed are the sons of the kingdom and the tares are the sons of the evil one. Again, there is no room for changing what Jesus meant here. It is simple and straightforward and extra biblical revelation is just wrong. He goes on to say that the tares will be cast into a fiery furnace.
I am a Christian who is also a businessman. I truly want to do the will of my Father in all things. I do not turn off my Christian side when I am dealing with the secular business world. I am an ambassador for Christ everywhere I go. I want to be able to explain and defend the Hope that is within. This blog is about “equipping you with Biblical wisdom to win in the marketplace”. There is room in Christian unity for a lot of different beliefs about a host of things that shouldn’t cause division. But their are items that are central to the Christian faith that when challenged we must defend. Is it critical to the readers of this blog that “you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart to be saved”? It is appointed once for a man to die and then comes the judgment. No mouth once you’re dead.
July 12th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Amen .. that was beautiful!
July 12th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
To Micahel B.
It is not a matter of us having a second or any “chance’ to believe.
What matters is what God does in us to CAUSE us to believe. If our heart is to hardened to believe, then God will give us a new heart or he will circumcize the flesh from the heart we were born with.
It is God who sends angels to separate the tares (the children produced from the seed of the devil) from the wheat (the sons or fruit of God). No wheat or son of God is cast into the lake of fire. Only the children of the devil, the tares, are cast into the lake of fire.
Michael B. You misquote scripture when you write, “you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart to be saved” The scripture, Romans 10:9 says, “That IF thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. It does not say you MUST believe. But Romans 14: 11 says. “For as it is written, As I live saith the Lord, every knee SHALL bow to me, and every tongue SHALL confess to God.
This sounds to me like God does not give us any choice but to believe and confess to him. And you of course know what Philippians 2:10 says about every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. This also sounds to me that God will CAUSE every tongue to confess Christ whether they want to or not. And God also says in Ezekiel 36:27 that he will put his spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes. I love the chorus to the song that says, “One day every tongue will confess you are are God Onee day every knee will bow, but the greatest treasure remains for those who gladly choose you now. Come now is the time to worship.
The problem I see with your evangelical, fundamentist belief system is that you somehow think that you and others who share your belief system can lead unsaved people to the Lord and get them to believe by reasoning with them out of scripture using the Roman road, four spiritual laws or other evangelical tools of the trade. You might even convince them that they are sinners and get them to recite the sinner’s prayer. You might even scare them into believing by telling them they will go to hell forever if they don’ t believe. I used to be inagreement with such so-called evangelical work. But now, since God has revealed his kingdom in me I see that such efforts do not comport with the ministry of Jesus, which is all about restoring God’ s kingdom on earth.
Enough said!
I am tired of expounding the truth to deaf ears. Lord willing, I will withdraw from this discussion.
David Thompson
July 13th, 2009 at 12:47 am
David, you are right about my Romans 10:9 misquote. The question to be asked is if this is how you are saved, is there any other way? I posit that there isn’t.
I agree that Jesus came to seek and save that WHICH was lost. What was lost? The answer is His Kingdom on earth. I do not believe there is anything I can do to save anybody unless the Holy Spirit has given them the gift of repentance and the Holy Spirit chooses me to open my mouth. Then I believe the Word of God can accomplish all things. It is Christ in us, the hope of glory that saves people. It is Christ in us, that accomplishes His prayer of thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. As we decrease we allow Him to increase.
July 13th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Michael,
I agree with everything you said in your last email.
So, as I withdraw from this discussion, we seemingly end in agreement. Yet, I do not not for one minute believe we actually are in agreement over the issue of God’ s universal kingdom salvation. You very correctly say that what we have lost is God’ s kingdom on earth and that repentance is a gift of God. I would add that God’ s grace, faith and his kingdom are also God’ s gift to mankind kind. But these gifts, God CAUSES us to receive and therefore, in the end, no man can refuse God’ s gifts. Thus all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of God’ s truth. Satan’s work is to try and make us, through his deception, to refuse God’ s gifts but God’ s power to make us receive them is far greater. Most of us are but God’ s beloved pawns in his great mysterious game of chess. This truth is born out in what Jesus told his disciples about the mystery of the kingdom of God.
When Jesus first revealed the mystery of God’ s kingdom to his disciples, he told them that those outside their fellowship would not understand this mystery. Mark 4:11 records Jesus’ s words to his disciples, “Unto you it given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see but not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at anytime they should be converted, and their sins should should be forgiven. And he went on to say to his disciples, “Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
And then, as he interpreted for them the parable of the sower, He revealed that these are they by the wayside, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh way the word that was sown in their hearts, and these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themsleves, and so endure for a time: afterward when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among the thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfullness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
The fundamental point of all this is that Father God has ordained that Satan hinder people from receiving the universal kingdom salvation message. Why has God done this this? the answer is, to keep Satan and his princes from knowing what God is doing universally on earth to destroy Satan and his works and to thereby restore his kingdom on earth. St. Paul addresses this in 1Cor. 2:7-8. Many people who are reading these words do not have a clue what these scriptures are talking about because these people fall into one of the groups Jesus mentioned in his parable of the Sower that Satan prevents from hearing the kingdom word and acting upon it. Romans chapter 11 reflects God’ s mystery that he has caused blindness in part of the people of Israel as to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah whom God has appointed to be king of his coming kingdom on earth as per Isaiah 9:6-7. The last words of these verses say, “The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will perform this.
YET, Romans 11:26 says (despite this blindness), “So all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them , when I shall take away their sins.
The Pharisees of Jesus day were quite familiar with God’ s prophecies about Messiah and the coming of God’s kingdom on earth but still they were blinded as to how God would fulfill these prophesies in Jesus Christ.
Those blind Pharisees were much like the blind church of today of whom Jesus said, “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in …… for ye compass sea and land (just like Evangelical missionaries) to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Like the Evangelical church today, the Jewish religious leaders did NOT believe God’ s kingdom salvation was universal for all people even though their prophets said it was. Isaiah 49:6 says of Messiah, “It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give the for a light to the Gentiles that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
The Pharisees believed as most of today’ s church believe in the hidious and exclusive doctrine of everlasting heaven in the afterlife for believers like them and hell in the afterlife for unbelievers.
Jesus MOCKED this belief in his parody of the rich man and Lazarus. In this parody, he depicted the rich Parisees as the rich man burning in hell while he depicted the poor man Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham where the Parisees exclusively believed they would be in the afterlife. It is so ironic and quite funny to me that Evangelicals today believe this parody is evidence for an eternal hell in the afterlife when it it nothing more than a parody that mocks the view of hell for unbelievers in the afterlife.
The message of Jesus, “Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.” is for this present life not for the afterlife.
I could go on and on reiterating what I have all ready written about God’ s gospel of universal kingdom salvation. But I believe most are now dull of hearing and are as tired of this all important discussion as I am at this present time. But I know it is God’ s will that this discussion not end. As God fulfills Jesus’s prophecy that everything hidden will be revealed, the discussion of God’ s universal kingdom salvation will arise again and again until all men will be saved through the coming of God’ s kingdom on earth and all men will receive the knowledge of this truth. Amen
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 13th, 2009 at 11:53 am
On July 4, a former classmate of my son’s was stabbed to death by her stepfather. The mother was stabbed and shot in the head but she survived and is recovering at the hospital. The 18 year old daughter was not a believer, had not repented of her sins and accepted Jesus Christ (Yahshua) as her Lord. She was loved by family and friends, had a sweet and gentle disposition. But she will now burn in hell for eternity with the likes of Adolph Hitler.
My question is, how do we minister the love of Christ and the truth of the gospel to the grieving mother? Do we tell her that the Lord has given her a second chance to accept Him and she now has the opportunity to spend eternity with her loving Saviour? And the ex-husband who so brutally stabbed and killed her daughter and almost killed her will also have the opportunity to repent and spend eternity in heaven. A hundred years from now, Ariel will still be burning in hell for her decision not to confess and accept Jesus during her 18 years of life. And a million years from now she will still be burning because our God is righteous and just and will not let the person who has not confessed go unpunished.
When Jesus (Yahshua) rose from the dead He appeared to His disciples. Thomas was not present the first time and said that he would not believe until he actually saw the Lord and touched the wounds. He was given that opportunity. After seeing Jesus he fell to his knees and said, “My Lord, and my God.” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed.”
God is no respecter of persons. What He does for one, He will do for another. It does say that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. Scripture and church history tell us about those who have been raised from the dead. Those people died a second time.
Enoch walked with God and Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, neither one of them died at all. So what does it mean when we say it is appointed to men once to die?
Sometimes it is good to look at the traditions we have accepted without question. We are told to be ready to answer every man with a reason for the hope that is within us, with meekness and fear.
1Cor 15:19 (KJS) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
July 13th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Kathy, how do you know that your friends 18 year old daughter died in her sins? Did Michael Jackson die in his sins? NONE OF US KNOWS FOR SURE ON EITHER COUNT. All we can say about MJ is that a lot of his life did not glorify God. Maybe that is what you are saying about your friends daughter but you don’t know about her final breaths.
God may not be a respector of persons but that does not mean He will do the same things for all people. The biblical and empircal evidence for that is legion.
I think you are right about not accepting traditions or any theology without question. Many have posted above about being like the Berean Christians in the book of Acts and searching the sripture daily to see if these things be true. We should do that with traditions as well as doctrines that tickle our ears.
What I have found lacking is a straight answer to the key points under discussion. Is is possible for a group of brothers and sisters to reason togethor from scripture about differing view points? I hope so.
For instance, does ALL always mean ALL in scripture?
July 13th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Kathy,
My father was recently killed by a botched “simple” operation. In the past year I have seen two dear friends die of cancer (19 year old daughter of a good friend and a 33 year old young mother of two).
Romans 8:28 says that God causes all things to work togethor for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. I don’t understand this verse but I have chosen to believe it.
There wasn’t a lot that could be said to me by anybody after my father died. The best responses I received were people who just listened when I wanted to vent, offered physical help, and were available. I tried to apply that with the families of the two young ladies that died later. The fathers and mothers told my wife and I that they appreciated the love we demonstrated to them rather than empty words that were often given. I guess the lesson learned by these events is sometimes when it comes to words, less is more. Show your love to them.
I personally would not talk about theology but let the Christ in you, the hope of glory do all of the ministering to your friend. I pray that God will direct your steps, actions, and words in helping your friend.
July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Thank you Joe and Michael for your input. I have used Romans 8:28 many times when dealing with a difficult situation. You are right, Joe. None of us knows for sure what happened in the last moments of Ariel’s or Michael Jackson’s life.
But seven years ago I was there when my first husband died. We were married 27 years. Six years into the marriage I became a believer but he never did. I loved him and prayed for him year after year. He developed heart trouble and other health problems. I believe that anger, bitterness and unforgiveness contributed to his failing health. I was in the emergency room with him when his heart stopped. They could not revive him. The confession never came from his lips.
We had four children together. He loved them and they loved him. When he died I comforted the children by reminding them that their dad was not in pain any longer. The children were 11, 14, 18 and 20 years old at the time. They believed that their father would be in heaven. At the funeral the minister spoke of meeting again.
I didn’t talk theology then. It has been seven years and I will NEVER tell the children that their father will end up in hell. Even though that is what theology says.
Even though we teach the doctrine of hell, we really don’t want to believe it. We have no problem thinking that the wicked will burn in hell, but it is different when it is happening to some one we love. We want to believe that they made that last second confession. Perhaps just as they took their last breath and their spirit was leaving their body. That is the thought we cling to. Love believes all things, hopes all things….no matter what theology says.
July 14th, 2009 at 12:27 am
To Kathy,
It is a twisted theology that says unbelievers will burn in hell forever after they die. You need not believe such repugnant teaching. King Solomon taught that when a man dies his spirit returns to God who gave it and his body returns to the dust of the earth from whence it came. (See Eccl. 12:7) Moreover, Revelation 1:18 assures us that Jesus now has the keys to death and hell. 1Peter 1:19 tells us that just after Jesus died on the cross he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsufffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water. Ephesians 4:8-9 indicates Jesus set the capitves in prison free and led them as he ascended on high to be with Father God.
Again, please notice, Jesus set the capitives free who were sometime disobedient even before the flood. Nowhere in the Bible does it depict men burning hell except for Jesus’ s story about the rich man and Lazarus. But this story is a fictitious parody that Jesus used to mock the Parisees’ belief that that unbelievers would burn in Hell forever after they died while the Pharisees would be in heaven (the bosom of Abraham) after they died.
Jesus taught that heaven (God’ s kingdom) was coming to earth. He even taught us to pray, “Thy kigdom come thy wil be done on earth as it is in heaven.” He taught that all men would be resurrected to participate in
God’ s kingdom on earth. The unblieving and unrighteous will also be resurrected to judgment so they can be cleansed of Satan’s influences in their lives. This judgment is depicted in Jesus’ s parable of the wheat and tares. I find it very interesting that people who hold to the repugnant doctrine of eternal hell for unbelievers do not want to talk about it when unbelievers die. They hate this doctrine and wish it were not true. The good news is, it is not true! They are deluded by the devil but they don’ t know it yet. But they will know it because St. Paul assures us in 1Timothy 2:4 that it is God’ s will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. The truth is that God sent Jesus to save the whole world, even those who cannot believe. For those who cannot believe, God will give a new heart so they can believe and do the the works of God. (See Ezek 36:26-27.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 14th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Mr. Thompson, enough of this nonsense already. The pompous and arrogant attitude that “I have been enlightened and you haven’t, nanny nanny boo boo” is sickening. Your biblical exegesis (ie drawing out of the bible) is severly lacking and you are guilty of biblical eisegesis (putting in). Saying the Holy Spirit enlightened you to understand the scripture in a way that contradicts the scripture is deception.
Someone earlier asked “does ALL always mean ALL?” From C.H. Spurgeon “”the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after
Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.”
Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God,
little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does
the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are
used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very
rarely that “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are
generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts
– some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not
restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …”
Mr. Pink, please put an end to this ranting and raving on your blog. Do you believe the everybody will be saved no matter what they do line of thinking?
July 14th, 2009 at 11:53 am
To John, Michael B., Kathy, Michael Pink and all who read this blog,
It is truly astounding that otherwise very intelligent people lose all sense of reality and knowledge of God when it comes to discussing what may happen to people after they die. Everybody knows that when human beings die, their bodies normally return to the dust of the earth just as the wisest man, King Solomon said in Eccl. 12:7, unless the bodies are preserved with chemicals or in some extraordinary way like the Egyptians preserved bodies. But the fact remains that we today can look upon the preserved bodies of Egyptian Pharoahs that lived thousands of years ago and know beyond any shadow of a doubt that these bodies never burned continually in an imagened hell. Yet, the images that have been evoked in people’ s minds from the imagery of Dante’ s inferno and Jesus’ s parody of the rich man and Lazarus cause people to cast aside the reality of their life experience and their knowledge of what they know to be true. In their mind’ s eye, people can “see” the rich man dying of thirst begging Father Abraham to send Lazarus to put a drop of water on his tongue. But if they would stop and think about it they would laugh and realize that image is absurd and ridiculous. We all know, as I said before, that a dead man does not thirst for water and a dead man’ s body lies in the grave until it decays and disintegrates unless it is presevered with chemicals. And furthermore, what good would one drop of water do for a thirsty man who is dead anyway. This is a huge joke that Jesus told the Parisees to mock their absurd belief in a everlasting burning hell for unbelievers.
I can now hear brother John raging and chafing at the bit over this truth that implies he is an imbecile for believing the tradional lie that the Pharisees believed that there is a heaven for believers after they die and a everlasting burning hell for unbelievers after they die, Nevermind that a human body would quickly burn up in a raging fire. But NOooo, in the absurd belief of the pharisees, the human body stays alive forever as it continually burns in torment. Again, what a huge joke and delusion Satan has perpetrated on the imaginations of otherwise very intelligent people who support, teach and believe this absurd Pharisee doctrine.
Over four thousand years ago, God brought Noah’ s flood to destroy all mankind, except Noah and his sons, because the imaginations of men’ s hearts were evil continually. St. Paul teaches in 2Cor. 10:5 that we should cast down such evil imaginations that exalt itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought captive unto Christ. St. Paul DID NOT teach what Jesus called the leaven of the Parisees that unbelievers would burn in hell forever. St. Paul taught the mysteries of God that it is God’ s will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. This truth is that God is restoring his kingdom on earth. And as he brings restoration, he destroys the work of the devil that causes unbelief and sin in mankind. Remember what St. John wrote in 1John 3:8-10, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destory the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God (which is all mankind) doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this are the children of God manifest, and the children of the devil…
Again, I think I can hear bothers John and Michael B. chafing at the bit, gnashing their teeth crying “liar, liar, your pants are on fire.” because I am espousing something that they HOPE is true but they can’ t believe because
Charles Spurgeon and other such revered teachers of scripture have taught them that “all” does not mean “all” when St. Paul writes that we should pray for ALL men, for kings and for ALL that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in ALL godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviorwho will have ALL men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. In these passages of scripture, all does not mean, “some of all”. It means “all”.
Get a life guys. Get eternal life which is God’ s free gift to ALL mankind regardless of what any man may believe. Amen
In His majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 14th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
David and John,
It isn’t necessary to be childish to get your point across.
However, John did make a point about the word ALL in the New Testament that obviously doesn’t mean every single individual. And as I pointed out above, David tends to ignore the specific point or question asked. David, can you address the scriptures that John quoted above and explain why it doesn’t mean all there but it does in the scriptures that you quote?
July 14th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Dear David,
We like to allow comments of just about every kind on this blog because we believe that we are all made stronger by healthy discussion and dialog on all matters, especially those that are relevant to understanding the Scriptures and God’s ways. I think what you are missing in the comments that these other folks are sending to you is that your tone often comes across as very self-righteous and condescending and when people disagree with you, you claim that they are ignorant and that they basically can’t argue against your point because you have been given exclusive knowledge by the Holy Spirit that they simply haven’t been given yet.
In fact, God’s Spirit speaks to us all and we can really grow in understanding if we are willing to discuss what we each see and hear in the Scriptures and in His voice because, as humans, we can often misunderstand or misinterpret things and we need one another to help sharpen us all - even you. God has not chosen you to be the only one who understands things to serve as one who will help to enlighten the rest of us.
Please consider that you may be lacking in some of your understanding too and could benefit from listening to other believers just as much as they could benefit from listening to you.
Also, whenever a discussion reverts to name calling and insults, it loses the intellectual benefit of the discussion in the first place.
Blessings,
Cheryl
July 14th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Thank you Cheryl, and amen. I think we need to all need to share with the attitude of 1 Co. 13. Bless you and Mr. P! K
July 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Joe,
You are right. I apologize for getting testy.
Like a couple of other people who have questioned or challenged the “everybody gets saved no matter what doctrine”, I see big ramifications.
It appears that there are a few critical items that this doctrine hinge on. It also appears that literal and figurative language get lost in some of the arguments. It is prudent that we have a conviction that is supported by scripture, not other teachers, traditions, or people that claim special enlightenment.
What would be nice is biblical discussion about a couple of these hinge concepts of this new doctrine:
1. Concept of time in the bible and the words used.
2. Concept of hell and the figurative language that illustrate it.
3. Concept of the words all and whole world.
Paul said in Romans 1:8 that their faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Did that happen?
July 14th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
2Cor 3:6 (KJS) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Sometimes all means all and sometimes all means some. And sometimes it could be either - that is where our tradition interprets for us. That leads to divisions, doctrines and denominations. But the spirit of the Word is the same from Genesis to Revelation. Yahweh has a plan and He will fulfill all (meaning ALL) of it, in His time.
All of us who are participating in this blog are brothers and sisters. And sometimes disagreement will arise. It happened with the early believers too.
Acts 15:37 (KJS) And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
But they were able to resolve their differences because later we read,
2Tim 4:11 (KJS) …Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
We have the promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Eventually we will all be there together.
Praise God!
In the meantime, thank you all for your input to this discussion. There is much truth sprinkled in here.
July 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Very good Kathy.
I have been actively engaged in this discussion with David Thompson both on this blog and offline. After reading several books on Universal Salvation, I was questioning where my beliefs on salvation came from. I finally came to the conclusion that the historical view of salvation was consistent with the scripture. However, since we only see in a glass dimly, I have asked pointed questions to some of David’s posts. As Kara just said we need to always remember 1 Cor 13. I have failed in some of my posts of keeping a spirit of Love at all times. With that said I think that passion for truth is needed. Jesus drove the money changers out with a whip (not suggesting we do that). I would just like to see more in depth study of the issues presented and not proof texting of our favorite theology.
July 14th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
To Joe Nathan and Cheryl,
I hear what you say about being childish and calling people names. But I would ask, was Jesus being childish when he called the Pharisees, snakes, whited tombs and children of the devil? If we are following Jesus why isn’ t it ok for us to do the same? When St. Paul disputed with the Jews in Ephesus for three months boldly persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God, I am sure emotions ran high and there was a lot of name calling. But in such disputes we should all know that God’ s word will always prevail and the truth will come forth regardless of who speaks it. Therefore, I believe it is God’ s will that we not hold back speaking forth the truth as we see it simply for the sake of being polite. It does not bother me at all that John and others mock me when I say the Holy Spirit revealed something to me. Actually it makes me laugh when John writes, “The pompous and arrogant attitude that “I have been enlightened and you haven’t, nanny nanny boo boo” is sickening.”
I used to revere Charles Spurgeon as a good Bible teacher until I realized he was one the prime teachers of the lie and leaven of the Pharisees who selfishly and exclusively taught that only the children of Abraham who believed as they did would go to heaven (the bosom of Abraham) when they died. Spurgeon’ s teaching about the various meanings of the word “all” in scripture is astute but it does not negate the truth that in many places such as 1Timothy 2:1-6, the word “all” means “all’ in its all-inclusive sense. If the meaning of “all” in 1Timothy 2:1-6 is as Spurgeon suggests “some of all” The passage would seem to me to contain the ugly root of religious discrimination based upon a person’ s belief system.
In the selfish and discriminatory mind set of the Pharisees, the very idea that Jesus gave himslef a ransom for “ALL” mankind is quite repugnant. Even St. Peter, at first, temporarily rejected God’s will that the Gentiles would be included in God’ s kingdom salvation plan for earth.
Please notice that when I talk about God’ s salvation, I always call it
God’ s KINGDOM salvation because the restoring of God’ s kingdom on earth IS God’ s salvation plan for earth. The church Pharisees of today have missed this truth of God. They choose to think as I use to think that God’ s plan of salvation is limited only to those that believe in Jesus and have accepted him as their personal savior, even though the Bible says nothing about accepting Jesus as personal savior. Can you see the selfish exclusiveness in this mindset?
When St. Paul admonishes Timothy to pray for “all” men did he mean to pray only for some of all men who believed as he did? I think not.
In His majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 14th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
To John,
The expression, “nanny nanny, boo boo” isounds like something I have heard children say when they stick out their tongue and make a face to demean their playmates. Could you please enlighten me as to what you mean as I have not yet had such enlightenment as to the meaning. Thank you
For those who might want to know, Charles Spurgeon was an English Baptist preacher whose life spanned most of the 19th century. He wrote about the question of the meaning of “all” in scripture that was a great controversy in his day. In the United States, we suffered a great Civil War over the issue of slavery and whether or not we were a nation dedicated to the proposition that ALL men are created equal. Many in the United States and probably even in England openly, but later on mostly secretly, believed this “all” meant “all” white people were created equal but black people were not included in this meaning of “all”.
This discriminatory idea, I believe, was similar to the idea that drove Spurgeon to assess the meaning of the word ‘All” in scripture so he could refute what the Bible clearly taught about universal salvation that it is
God’ s will that “all” men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth as St. Paul wrote in 1Timothy 2:4.
Spurgeon was an ardent Calvinist who believed in limited salvation for only God’ s elect. He believed with Calvin the odious doctrine that God in his sovereignty ordained in his plan for earth that some men would go to heaven when they died and some whould go to hell when they died. This concept was based upon Romans 9:18, that said, “Therefore hath he mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. In this mindset those who were able to believe were the elect, the chosen vessels of God while those he hardened were unbelievers who could not believe and were therefore fitted for destruction in hell. Spurgeon was a prolific writer and a great preacher who is said to have preached to 10 million people in his day. He was called the prince of preachers. Thus was his influence very great in England and also in the U.S. And very few if any were able to use scripture to refute his selfish and exclusivist Calvinist mindset.
No doubt the concept of universal salvation challenged his Calvinist mindset and he did everything he could to refute it using scripture as he interpreted it. But he was unable to refute the mind of Christ that was in St. Paul that knew it was God’ s will that all men be saved and come to the knowldge of the truth. Jesus told the proud Parisees, “Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (meaning Israel). His other sheep are the rest of the world of humanity. When Jesus said, “Now is the judgment of this world, now is the prince of this world cast out. And I, if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me.” He meant he would draw ALL men unto him, not just some men. The angel told the shepherds that, “Behold, I bring you great tidings of joy which shall be to ALL people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior which is Christ the Lord. Here the word “all” means “all” not some of all.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
July 14th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
David,
I apologized 4 or 5 posts above. I think Cheryl articulated more tactfully exactly what I tried to say so tastelessly.
Repeating from Cheryl’s post “I think what you are missing in the comments that these other folks are sending to you is that your tone often comes across as very self-righteous and condescending and when people disagree with you, you claim that they are ignorant and that they basically can’t argue against your point because you have been given exclusive knowledge by the Holy Spirit that they simply haven’t been given yet.”
God is God. He can do whatever He wants. But does He limit or constrain Himself? In most translations, 1 Timothy 2:4, uses the word desire instead of will. Either way has He CHOSEN as the Calvinist’s suggest that only the elect will be saved? Or has He CHOSEN to give men free will to accept or reject His offer of mercy? I desire my children to always obey, newflash, they don’t. I have seen promoters in a mall draw everybody to them, they don’t all accept what he is offering though. I have seen people in situations where there was great joy for all but they chose to be grumpy. Even if the verses you quote about all mean every single individual who ever lived, none of them in context negates the free will of man.
July 14th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
John,
Your questions and analogies show me that you do not have much of an understanding of the ways of Father God and the nature, immutability, omnipotence and omnicience of his will and purpose as he is carries it out with mankind. For example, when you say, “I desire my children to always obey, newflash, they don’t.” this falls short of showing how God’ s will and purpose works in relation to us as his children. In the reality of God’ s relationship with mankind, He wills that mankind obey him and he ensures we obey him by writing his laws on our hearts and training us daily to walk in his laws and statutes. This on-the-job training employs an entity called Satan to temp us away from obeying God so that we can experience what happens when we do not obey God. He of course gives us the ability to choose to submit to Satan’ s temptations but he will not allow us to be tempted above that we are able; but with every temptation he also makes a way of escape, that we may be able to bear it. (See 1Cor 10:13)
God places his children, who he conceives and causes to be born on earth, in the custody of adults usually their parents to train up God’ s children in the way they should go. God also trains adults/parents on-the-job to carry out his will and purpose for his children. But as you should know, being a parent, parents often follow the example of their own parents parenting and in this way the sins (iniquity) of the parents are passed on to the children unto the third and fourth generations as it says in Numbers 14:18.
Also, in this way, the righteousness of parents is apssed on to the children unto the third and forth generations.
I have found that most Christians with whom I have had in depth conversations about the things of God, have little understanding about God and his will and eternal purpose for mankind on earth. But usually they think they have all the knowledge they need to know about God. They do not like to have their cherished and settled beliefs and doctrines challenged by someone like me, who sets himslf up as knowing more about God than they do. Such Christians think it is unloving to challege their belief systems and would not even think of challenging another Christian’ s doctrines and beliefs. They would prefer to find a denomination where most everyone agrees with their doctrines and their is no prophet like Jeremiah or Jesus challeging what they believe about and their relationship him. MUslims are much the same but sometimes more extreme in their response to a paerson who challenges their belief in Mohammad as God’ s (Allah’s) last and final prophet. Such challengers may be killed.
But Christians seem to be satisfied in just demeaning or killing the challengers with words.
When ever I try to express my knowledge of the things of God, I am most concerned that the meditations of my heart are acceptable in God’ s sight because I know he will hold me acountable for the things he wants me to say. The responses I get from fellow Christians, like with this blog site, lets me know if what I say is being understood. Sometimes when the response indicates people are offended, it lets me know there was at least some understanding or processing of what I said taking place. Some of my closest life-long friends only rarely want to talk about the things of God, so to maintain our friendship I only talk about things that are acceptable to our friendship. I do not try to badger them about accepting Christ becasue I know that in God’ s timing they will be saved and come tot he knowledge of the truth
July 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
To Cheryl,
I have studied your post to me dated July 14 at 12:23PM.
No doubt your post is in response to John’ s post from two hours prior where he disrespectfully wrote, referring to my posts, “Mr. Pink, please put an end to this ranting and raving on your blog.”
I feel you condecend to John’ s level of disrepect of me and my posts when you take a position of advising me about something you feel I am overlooking. You imply that I am ignorant and oblivious to what people think about me and my posts when you write, “I think what you are missing in the comments that these other folks are sending to you is that your tone often comes across as very self-righteous and condescending and when people disagree with you, you claim that they are ignorant and that they basically can’t argue against your point because you have been given exclusive knowledge by the Holy Spirit that they simply haven’t been given yet.”
Please know that I am NOT unaware of what people think about me and my posts and how much they are offended by what I write. In my posts I tell the truth as I feel God has revealed it to me just as Jesus, Jeremiah, St. Paul and other men of God did. I know that what I write WILL cut across people’ s cherished and settled beliefs. And because of this I expect them to be offended and to respond in all manner of base and childish emotional outbursts such as saying “nanny, nanny boo boo” or maybe, “Liar,liar, pants on fire.” When this happens I know that my writings have touched a deep nerve of an adult’s mind and heart. As I have said in other posts, when St. Paul disputed with the Jews of Ephesus for three months boldly declaring and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God, emotions were not doubt running very high, and I would suspect there was a lot of name calling. This is what you should expect to happen in this blog that you say is for the purpose allowing comments of just about every kind on this blog because we believe that we are all made stronger by healthy discussion and dialog on all matters, especially those that are relevant to understanding the Scriptures and God’s ways.”
I feel, actually I know, the revelations I have received about God’s ways and his kingdom are very unique and not many today have received such revelations. God has provided me with a dear friend, a black pastor, who has also received that same revelations as I have received so we can confirm for each other truth of these revelations. The Holy Spirit has opened scripture for both us so we can understand the revelations God has given, especially to St. Paul concerning the kingdom of God. When
St. Paul told King Agrippa of the great revelations he had received, the king told Paul with a LOUD voice. “thou art beside thyself, much learning hath made thee mad.” I am sure many think the same thing about me and my pastor friend.
It has been said by some who post on this blog that I do not respond to questions about what I write. This is somewhat correct. I will not immediately repsond to “loaded” questions that are born out of misunderstanding of scripture such as many of the questions John has asked. The Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, once asked Jesus such a “loaded” question to which Jesus responded, “you do err, not knowing scripture.”
Cheryl, from what knowedge do you pontificate when you advise me saying?, “God has not chosen you to be the only one who understands things to serve as one who will help to enlighten the rest of us.” Please consider that you may be lacking in some of your understanding too and could benefit from listening to other believers just as much as they could benefit from listening to you. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? From common sense that others also have who agree with you? You are quite wrong in implying I do not listen to other believers. I listen very very intently. And I know I have ears that can hear what the spirit is saying to the churches. For example I can hear the words of Jesus that say that those outside his fellowship with his disciples have eyes and ears but they cannot peceive what he is saying in his parables.
I know that God has revealed his mysteries to me and he had me write a 400 page book about this. I also know that most people cannot, at present, understand what is written in that book. Information about this book and about me and my background can be found at:
www.thefellowshipofthemysteryofgod.com
In closing, I would challenge the truth of the last statement you made in your post to me that said, “Also, whenever a discussion reverts to name calling and insults, it loses the intellectual benefit of the discussion in the first place.” This is not true. Name calling and insults indicate that deep emotions have been touched. When people cannot respond in agreement with the truth and they resort to name calling and insults that may represent defeated demons crying out and may indicate the beginning of a conversion process that the Holy Spirit is bringing about.
I will now await the barrage of responses to this post from those who will agree with you and feel my post confirms everything that you said about me in your post.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
P.S. I would refer everyone to an excellent blog that Michael Pink wrote on May 29, 2007 on the mystery of God. For some reason, this blog is posted separately on the Internet.
July 29th, 2009 at 1:37 am
My questions to David Thompson are: Why did I have a supernatural experience when I called on the name of Jesus and asked where he has been since he died on the cross for me? Why did He at that exact moment in time choose to appear to me? Isn’t this the fulfillment of “my choice and decision” at that very moment to believe in Him and call His name? Having been raised Catholic, I had no idea at the time what had happened. It was sometime later I discovered through church services that I had had a “born again” experience. Obviously David I dont want nor need your answer ….but can only hope and pray that one day you too will make that “choice or decision” in a time of desperate heartfelt need and out loud call on the name of Jesus and see if He really gives you something to write about.
July 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
To TJ Sailen,
Since you say, ” Obivously David, I don’ t want or need your answer”, it seems your mind is made up that you had a “born again” experience and you believe that experience was brought on by your FREE WILL CHOICE to “call upon the name of Jesus and to ask him where he has been since he died on the cross for me.”
I know I could not convinvce you otherwise and I would not even try. But I also know that God can and will convince you otherwise as he reveals the true meaning of his word to you.
When I was 13, I “chose” to accept Jesus as my personal savior and for me, like you, it seemed to be a supernatural experience of being “born again”. So was I taught and so did I believe for the 40 years I walked as a proud, professed “born again” Christian. Like you, no one but God could shake me from this “proud” belief that I had “chosen” to be “born again”.
But God HAS shaken me from this “proud belief” by revealing to me what the true meaning of being “born again” really is.
As I have studied to show myself approved of God, I have learned that only St. John and St. Peter wrote about men being “born again” or “born of God”.
In John 1:12-13, John writes that those who received Jesus were “born, not of blood, nor of THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of THE WILL OF MAN, but of God.” If, being “born of God” is a matter of our “choice” and “free will” then why, I would ask, does this explicitly say that being “born of God” is NOT of the WILL OF THE FLESH NOR of the WILL OF MAN”?
“St. John writes in 1John 3:9, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” St. Peter seems to confirm that the seed of God does not corrupt one and cause him to sin where he writes, “being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.”
St. John records Jesus saying to Nicodemus, “Except a man be “born again” he cannot see the kingdom of God.” I used to believe what I was taught in church that this means a man must be “born again” to go to heaven when he dies. But God has revealed to me a somewhat different meaning to Jesus’ s words. The reason Jesus said this to Nicodemus was because he knew that Nicodemus, along with other Pharisees, was looking for God’ s kingdom to be restored on earth as the Jewish prophets, especially Daniel, had prophesied. Nicodemus appoached Jesus by night saying, “Rabbi, we know thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.” But before he could ask about the kingdom of God, Jesus “spiritually saw” that kingdom question in his mind, and he answered him saying, “”Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
What Jesus was actually saying to Nicodemus was, “Except a man be “spiritually enlightened” with spiritual eyes he cannot spiritually “see’ the kingdom of God, which is spiritual, in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Jesus used the birthing process as an analogy to depict “spiritual enlightenment” in the following sense. When a baby is born, it passes from the darkness of its mother’ s womb through the birth canal into the light of the world outside its mother’ s womb. This analogy and sense of “born again enlightenment” is depicted in several popular songs such as,”Its a Whole New world”
Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever asked anyone to make a choice to accept him as personal savior so they would be saved and go to heaven when they died. Moreover, in the incident with the rich young ruler, Jesus told his apostles that with man, salvation is impossible, but with God all things are posible.
I used to take “glory” unto myself believing I was smart enough to have “chosen” my own personal salvation by “choosing” to accept Jesus as my personal savior. But now that God has revealed to me that “No flesh shall glory in his presence.” (See 1Corinthians 1:29), I now know that God is no respector of persons and that I am born of God because it was his will not mine as it says in John 1:12-13.
Everyone knows it was God’ s will that we had no choice in our physical birth from our mother’ s womb. Why then, should we believe that God gives us all a choice in determining our eternal destiny? The truth is, he DOES NOT give us such a choice lest we “choose” his salvation and we glory in his presence taking partial credit for our eternal salvation.
In this mortal life, God does not give us a “chance” or “opportunity” to believe unto salvation but rather he saves us first and imparts his spirit into our hearts so we can then believe unto salvation. For we are all God’ s workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works as St. Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10. We do not do good works so that God will create us in Christ Jesus, but rather, God has created us in Christ Jesus so that we will do his good works.
The will that God has given mankind to make choices is not a “free will” with unlimited power to cause any will to happen. For example we cannot choose to buy an expensive car unless we have the monetary power to do so. With our will, usually God must provide the power to carry it out. This is called “will power”. And God controls and limits our will by withholding empowerment of our will. Hitler wanted to control the entire world and bring it under what he called the Third Reich. But God would not empower him to do so. But God HAS empowerd Jesus and his Saints to ovecome and take over the whole world and bring it under the control what God calls his kingdom. So that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson
August 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
More for TJ Sailen
I realize I have already written more that you probably even want to or will read.
But I feel God would have me write more to say that when I had my “born again” experience at age 13, I now realize it constituted a revelation from God about who he is, who Jesus is and who I am in their sight. I was not intensely seeking such revelation. Things were going pretty well for me in my life then. I was not in a traumatic crisis. My family of an older brother and two younger sisters was loving and intact. I was a successful student and athlete and I earned my own money delivering newspapers. I did, however, have an ongoing desire to know God that was prompted by the words of the hymn, “Holy Holy, Holy” that I loved to sing in church.
Whenever I sang that hymn something stirred in my inward man that made me want to know the God who was hidden in the darkness from the eye of sinful man. I now know that God placed that desire in my heart to know him just as he does with all mankind from the day we were born from the darkness of our mother’ s womb. Our first parents Adam and Eve had that same desire to know God that God had planted in their hearts. This desire emanated from God’ s Spirit that was in their heart and gave them life. It was the image of God, Christ Jesus, in them. I believe it was Eve’ s desire to know God that the satanic serpent played upon when he tempted Eve telling her that if she ate the forbidden fruit her eyes would be opened she would be as a god knowing good and evil. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, it is written that their eyes WERE opened, and they knew they were naked. In knowing they were naked implies they had become self-aware. For the first time they noticed how different they were, especially in their genitals. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover their differences and protect their private parts from each other’s and the animal’ s gazes.
Before they ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve walked with God and viewed everything from his perspective. After they ate from the forbidden tree, they became self-aware and viewed everything from their own self-perspective, not from God’ s perspective. In other words, they became carnally (fleshly or selfishly) minded. Romans 8:6 reveals that to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Therefore, the death that God said Adam and Eve would experience from eating from the forbidden tree was the death of carnal mindedness. Adam and Eve did not die spiritually as the church erroneously teaches today. The spirit of God in man can never die nor can it cause a man to sin because it is the seed of the living and righeous God that dwells in all mankind as 1John 3:9 says. God created mankind in his image, which is Christ Jesus as Colossians 1:15 says. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (See Ephesians 2:10)
When we undersatnd that in his kingdom plan for mankind on earth, God has oradined that the acquired carnal mindedness of Adam and Eve be passed on to their offspring, we will uderstand that all mankind are born with the satanic seed or virus of “carnal mindedness” which is selfishness. This is obvious when we observe babies today. One of the first things we observe in babies is their innate selfishness that cause them to grab things and say “mine”. This is considered “normal” and nothing to be concerned about. But God is concerned about the selfishness of mankind because he did not create mankind in Christ Jesus to be selfish. In God’ s kingdom plam for earth he will save mankind the influences of the devil that cause him to be selfish. He will renew mankind’ s mind to be unslefish and loving and honest.
What the salvation of God and the restoration of his kingdom on earth is all about is his plan to renew the minds of all mankind back to the mindset of Adam and Eve before they ate from the forbidden tree and died carnally. God’ s plan is to renew our minds and to give us new hearts and minds if need be and to put his spirit therein so this will CAUSE us to walk in his statutes and to do them as Ezekiel 36:26-27 says.
God has not ordained that his salvation ultimately be a matter of
mankind’ s choice or the will of the flesh. Our flesh-man, which is the seed of Satan in us is constantly in enmity with the spirit of God in us as Genesis 3:15 reflects. In Exodus 17:15-16, the Lord says he will have war with Amalek (the representation of the satanic seed), from generation to generation and the Lord will utterly put out the rememberance of Amalek from under heaven.
In His Majesty’ s Secret Service,
David Thompson